You could take any driver and colour a pattern of luck to their results if you chose to.

It is crazy to think that Nick's results over the past ten years, against guys as good as Alesi, Raikkonen, Massa, Frenzten, Villeneueve, Webber, Kubica and Vettel is mostly down to good fortune.

If anything Nick is incredibly lucky to have not won a race.

Give him the car and he can easily do it.

That's why it is so infuriating that Sauber would consider taking de la Rosa, who is the dictionary definition of a journeyman.

It is strange that Nick attracts so much flack, when he actually compares pretty well to Giancarlo Fisichella.

Only difference is that Nick's never got his hands on a front running machine, aside from in 2008 for a short spell.

People said the same about Webber, and Button, and Hakkinen and Nigel Mansell.

All took time to get their first wins. But when they came many more followed.

There is only one races where Nick could have won, and that was Canada 2008.

But he played the team game as instructed. Why do you think he looked so upset afterwards?

As I said before, Nick as been dreadfully unlucky not to have won.

When he's finished second it has always been behind a top driver. None guy at the front having an engine failure and gifting the win to him, like with Kovalainen.

Nick has finished second to: Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton (3 times), Massa and Button.

He had the car to win in 2008 It seems to be the same talk as with Montoya. When something went wrong it was never his fault. Ron gave him like 4 diff suspensions and he still was miles behind Kimi. Not his fault mmmkay

BMW took one race win in 2008.

Aside from that race, where else did they have the speed to challenge for outright victory?

Potmotr, if you feel sensitive to Heidfeld bashing, then do not bash de la Rosa in response. It's double standards.

Contrary to your opinion Hungary 2006 was an excellent drive for de la Rosa. He was actually catching Raikkonen until Kimi watched in the mirrors and crashed. De la Rosa had an outstanding drive in Austria 2000 and only a blown engine denied him from a podium finish. There are more such drives. DLR has not been a hopeless journeyman all of his career like you are trying to make him look like.

But Heidfeld is certainly better than de la Rosa, this I agree with.

Guys, I'll remind you the the topic is Sauber 2010, not posters support of drivers.

I'm not sensitive to it, just bored of it.

In absence of any other decent F1 driver news Nick seems to have become the target.

I've been harsh on Pedro de la Rosa because I believe he is not in the same league as Nick, despite being given a McLaren opportunity that Nick never got.



Really? I thought Hungary 2006 was more about Raikkonen fumbling over Liuzzi.

I agree that de la Rosa has had a few flashes over speed over the years but they've been too few and far between, and more often that not he's just made up the numbers.



Obviously I agree on this!

That is why I find it amazing that PdlR has been rumoured as a Sauber driver when Mr S has such a talented driver as Nick available.

Heidfeld won't be at Sauber because he doesn't bring money and he is more expensive than Pedro. I think Nick will end up at Renault anyway, which is the better option IMO.

There is a thread for Nick and isn´t this.
So calm down and stop bashing everything but Nick, please.

Did he beat Alesi? The car was slow and unreliable, nobody scored a point with it. The only thing I remember about them from that year is that ridiculous crash in Austria.

Heidfeld beat Raikkonen by 3 points (12-9). Means what? Kimi was a rookie then, and Heidfeld got most of his results from 2 odd races with lots of attrition (Austria and Brazil).

Frentzen, even on decline beat Heidfeld.

Webber was faster than Heidfeld, usually with a considerable margin, but had terrible luck all year. Crash with Fisi in Malaysia, which gave 3rd to Nick, then a badly timed pitstop in Monaco, an early retirement from a favourable position in Nurburgring, etc. etc.

Villeneuve was terrible in his last couple of years, but looked rather well against Heidfeld.

Kubica was faster than him, but had worse luck, especially in 2007. In 2008, he was miles better, the final results doesn't tell the real story. Without SCs in Canada, and Germany, without that last lap rain in Belgium, it should have been something like 75-45.

Fisichella might be more inconsistent than Heidfeld, but he has a history of some incredible drives, something Heidfeld never achieved in his carreer. His best race ever was an impressive 4th in the 2007 Bahrein GP. Just wow.

Monaco GP and European GP of 2005 were Nicks best races. The only people to stop him from winning those were Kimi and Alonso, who were the two best drivers that year.

last upgrades for BMW works very well.
maybe sauber can build some goos basis to 2010 car.
Renault have more works.

Is Sauber considering to keep the BMW moniker?
That sounds just weird.

Monaco?

He wouldn't beat Webber if the australian didn't have to spend another lap behind Alonso's finished Renault. It was just another lottery podium, sorry.

Europe was good, but again, luck helped with Kimi's last lap puncture and DC's penalty.

Heidfeld's best races were IMHO Bahrein and Canada from 2007, and maybe Britain from 2008.

Indeed it does. It would mean that the cars are called 'BMW Sauber-Ferrari'... with no BMW involvement whatsoever. The Bavarians could even sue the team for infringment of their rights to the BMW name, couldn't they?

Interestingly, Autsport cites the F1 Commission on the Brawn-to-Mercedes change: "This has been granted on a one-off exceptional basis due to Mercedes-Benz's long-term involvement and commitment to Formula 1."

Sauber has of course equally been involved since 1993, and ironically started out together with Mercedes.

Numbers say Pedro didn't finish much behind of Kimi during those some GP they both raced as team mates. Go and see for yourself in Formula1.com and compare GP per GP of both drivers. Not that bad for, according to your opinion, an old embarrash journeymen.

Webber didn't overtake Alonso, Heidfeld did which is why he finished 2nd ahead of Webber.

Also Kimi never had a puncture, he flat spotted the tyre which caused the suspension to fail.

And DC wouldn't have beaten Nick at the Nurburgring, his penalty cost him a place to Rubens not Heidfeld.

I guess they could and should.
This most be some kind of threat against the BMW AG, looking for a settlement over a deal, I really don't know.
After loosing Petronas, things are looking really creepy to Sauber nowadays.


I remember this. And also though of it as a message to another teams, that TV money would not be released to them in the occasion of name change. At the time I thought it was about Renault.

Webber was ahead of Heidfeld for most parts of the race, he was caught up when he had to set slow laps behind the Renault. Heidfeld had a 1 lap earlier pitstop, that's why he managed to leap Webber.

I've been arguing that the Sauber team should take Nick, the place for that argument is here.

I'm happy to follow a a moderator's direction if he/she thinks the other thread is the place for this discussion.

You're not a moderator, so I certainly won't be following your instructions I'm afraid.

I've played by the rules and haven't got personal with any of the posters here, so what's the problem?

I believe, strongly, that Nick is a vastly superior option to PdlR.

But I've probably banged this drum enough for now so will give it a rest, if that would make you happier.

I read Sauber said he has more problem at this very moment in his team. The name of his team is just one point of many.

I believe he is saying the true. Sauber has more problem than the team name how ever strange it may sounds. We just learned that he has sorted budget, he is or will, announce his second driver and the car was on the CAD for some time and the test has been done, Ferrari engine is contracted (afak) and more problem??? Would this be other than this choice of the second driver?

I saw it as BMW getting the best value-for-money title sponsorship in F1.

What I infer from it is that Sauber does not have a tittle sponsor for 2010 and is leaving the door open. No way will he be able to get two name changes, Sauber and then Sauber-SPONSER before the start of the season. I imagine they will leave it until just before the start of the season or until somebody steps up and purchases the naming rights.

Re blizzzzard/robracer debate.
For fear of dragging this off topic, let me end it here. The '05 Monaco race is etched in my brain.
Heidfeld dutifuly sat behind his teamate Webber for 52 laps telling his team he could go faster.
The order was P2-Alonso, P3-Webber, P4-Heidfeld. For the last 8 of these laps, Webber was not able to pass Alonso, who's tyres were going off.
Frustrated, Heidfeld asked to pit 3 laps early which the team allowed. He jumped Webber in the pit stop.
Now behind Alonso, Heidfeld passed him on his first lap out. A slick pass at the chicane after the tunnel. Once passed, Heidfeld was extremely quick. Webber then tried the same pass at the same spot, but was unsuccessful, until a lap later when he made a messy pass on Alonso that was successful.
The race finished P2-Heidfeld, P3-Webber, P4-Alonso.
Afterwards, Webber was not happy with the pit stop strategy change. The team took the blame.
I agree with robracer. It was one of Heidfeld's best races.
It was also one of Webbers best races, although, to me, a fan of both, it clearly showed the difference in passing ability.

The title sponsor changes the team name, not the name of the constructor. If a team changed it's title sponsor, it is free to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Formula_...ams_and_drivers

There you can see that the two are listed seperately. So it would only be one change, to Sauber, and they can add the title sponsor at any point.

They won't be called BMW Sauber by the time Bahrain comes around, they will have changed the name by then.

Christian Klien?

Another who didn't cut it the first time around.

Two and half seasons in F1, was shaded by David Coulthard and made too many errors.

Klien has been on the sidelines for a reason.

Good catch thanks

Still not 100% sure on this. When they signed up to compete in 2010 Ferrari signed up as a team, " Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro" and not as a constructor. So does the reward in the WCC go to say Ferrari (constructor) or to Ferrari Marlboro (team)?

Still wondering if Sauber is not waiting to see if someone steps up and wants to share the name. Agree no way they will start the season as BMW Sauber powered by Ferrari.

Thanks.

Not an instruction, just a petition (you see "please").

I like Nick and i hope he´ll race in 2010 (i think his choice is Renault).
But also i think PDLR is a very good choice, Wurtz is a solid driver, Peter Sauber is an inteligent businessman who knows very much about F1, Sauber Team is not a joke and Kubica is top material. So i think bashing them is not the best way to support Nick.... only that

I agree.
But on the other side, What about BMW paying Sauber for the name? or What about pit position for 2010 and changing name?

Thanks

As I said before, PdlR and Wurz were test drivers for so long for a reason.

They could both bring intelligent feedback but did nothing to suggest they were anything other than middle of the road race drivers.

Their collective tally of four podiums in a total of eight seasons tends to back that up.

And where did I ever say I had a problem with Kubica? He's a great driver. I was arguing that Nick stacks up quite well against him.

I'd argue that Peter Sauber would only take PdlR because finances dictate he needs to to make his team survive.

It might be a good argument to attract other sponsors. It could be helpfull in a court case to get the ex-BMW price money. They might force BMW to pay them [F]NOT[/F] to race as BMW .


What do you think about Villeneuve as a pay-/buy-in driver?

To be fair Alex Wurz in 1998 was a superb young talent and was knocking on Maranello's door.

apparently PdlR is denying the reports to the Spanish press.

Sure, he was talented at one point.

But after he Benetton fell out of love with him he went through those lost years as a test driver.

By the time he returned as a race driver in 2007 he wasn't what he once was.

I'd argue PdlR is the same, as is Luca Badoer.

All have spent too long testing, not enough racing.

Anyway...

I'd agree, and they spent that time testing because the teams didn't believe they were good enough to be race drivers.

Agreed. Before the Button decision, McLaren had Heidfeld lined up for the drive. Not their own test driver.
Now Sauber takes the rejected option?
Doesn't make sense to me....

Money

But why would someone put money into PDLR now, but not in the past?

NobleF1: Expecting news on Flavio Briatore's FIA court case today, plus an update on Nick Heidfeld's situation regarding an F1 seat for 2010

Are we expecting news out of Hinwil today? If not I guess Nick is heading elsewhere.

Sauber said they have signed the second driver already (but not yet told who it is): http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/20...t_10010503.html

Critical paragraph.

Nick is out of the race. What a bummer.

It is still unclear if (the seat) goes to to Giancarlo Fisichella, Pedro de la Rosa or Christian Klien. Nick Heidfeld, however, is looking out of the race and has other employment opportunities.

Fisichella would do a solid enough job, and could perhaps have positive implications for the price of those Ferrari engines.

Klien never came out of the shadows of Mark Webber or David Coulthard, and had a very good crack at F1.

Can't see how he'll be better after three-and-a-half seasons on the sidelines.

And you all probably know my view on PdlR, so no point me repeating it!

Spanish press (AS) says that it's Pedro or Fisi at Sauber. Heidfeld is out of the running.

F1 does not allow testing, so Sauber opt to test on race track?


Silly actually, if this is the way it is...

Sure, but Nick Heidfeld is a pretty damned good test driver too.

And PdlR has worked soley as a test driver for a reason.

agree very much.


I just do not know if Perdo has such money to wave at Sauber's face... so I decline my judgements...

I've met Pedro de la Rosa and can report that he is an ultra nice guy with loads of time for the fans..

..but that doesn't change my judgement on this one.

On papers a Kobayashi/PdlR partnership would be the team's weakest since Salo and Diniz back in 2000.

Still, Kobayashi might turn out to be awesome.

Kobayashi,... a sweet boy for now. Soon we will see if he is another Inoue... (sure not till now...)