That's because you forgot how both McLaren drivers fought each other and both blew it. Let's not forget that he was beaten by Massa also in 2007 on many occasions... Hardly a good performance...

They were wrong. Alonso hasn't done as well as expected this year and Kimi wasn't a complete twat.

By my count, Alonso has found himself at the back of the grid in 6 out of 13 races this season.

1. Australia: Driver mistake off the line subsequently hit by Button in a racing incident. Driver error and bad luck
2. Malaysia: Alonso and team missed the boat during qualifying. Stupidity
3. China: Jumped start. Driver error
4. Monaco: FP3 crash subsequently couldn't qualify. Driver error.
5. Valencia: Safety car. Bad luck
6. Spa: Crash with Rubens. Bad luck.

As seen above it's a combination of errors, bad luck and stupidity but in nearly 50% of the races he has found himself at the back of the grid during a race. How he is still in with a shot, admittedly a very slim shot at the title, is amazing.

Edit:

7. Silverstone: Cutting the chicane while overtaking Kubica (Stupidity) and serving his drivethrough immediately after the safety car, sending him to the back.

Yes, because Webber/Vettel threw away lots of points with stupid mistakes, Hamilton had a few mechanical problems. That's why he still has a chance.

Let's not forget about 8 points that were handed on a plate by his team, I mean team mate.

And to be on-topic, yes Ferrari have what the need in Alonso and yes, my favourite driver was Raikkonen. Good for Kimi that is doing something new and challenging and good for Ferrari that they finally have the driver that they think it's better "suited" to their philosophy.

There are unusually many title contenders that have stolen points from each other, the other contenders have had their share of bad luck and mistakes as well, all the rest so far have had to race their teammates in more equal terms and Ferrari has been the class of the field in a couple of races so it's not that bad of a car. Also for example in Monaco Alonso got very lucky with the safety car, so it's not like he's had bad luck all the time. All in all there is nothing too peculiar with that points table.

You forgot about UK and Turkey....

So far he has 5 normal races.

Yeah I just edited my post regarding Silverstone. That was stupidity of the highest calibre although he had no place to go. I can't recall what happened in Turkey.

So by this logic of yours Alonso will probably win the WDC as well this year. He is in the same position vis a vis the Red Bull, and to top it all Hamilton is taking points from those guys and not letting them run away. All Alonso has to do is finish ahead of those guys, which shouldn't be a problem, as he is 6 tenths faster than Massa who finished 4th in Spa.

See, the situation was there, but someone had to make use of it. In 2007 Kimi did it Massa couldn't. In 2008, for whatever reason, Massa was better. Let's see what Alonso can do this year. So far I cannot find anyone controlling/guiding the scarlet fever in the right direction, after Todt/Brawn and Schumacher left.

Regarding this topic, I am happy for both Kimi and Alonso. I think Ferrari was not the right place for him after Todt left. And Alonso really wanted to go there after he blew his chances with Mclaren. The decision to pay off Kimi was probably not a cheap decision, and the powers that be must have really thought about it. So I guess in as much as Ferrari is concerned, they got what they wanted, so it was right for them. In 2001, when Kimi joined Sauber, in an interview, and he said that he will drive for Ferrari some day, so he also achieved his dream of driving for Ferrari, and much more. Kimi looks much happier in 7th place in C4 now than when he was finishing on podiums towards the end in 2009. So it looks to be turning out just about right for Kimi as well.

You're re-writing history...

11 times both Kimi and Lewis/Alonso were on the podium. Four times all three were on the podium together.

Felipe did beat Kimi's performance six times, but he also finished 4th in the points, only 16 points down. He was in the hunt.

It was a very tight fight between all drivers of two teams. These four were the only four to sit on pole all season. No other teams, no other drivers.

In the last eight races all four only had one DNF. Both Lewis and Felipe also had one non-points finish, and Alonso's worst finish was a fourth place, whereas Kimi's worst finish in that run was a third, a podium finish.

It was a tight championship. "Lucky" is a term that could have applied to any of the four that won it.

But Kimi was the most consistent, and had the most wins.


McLaren did have an internal fight on their hands, but that stats don't show that it sabotaged either driver's season, as you are suggesting.

Kimi was always mathematically alive that season, and I argued that 'til the last race where he won it...

(Even the Autosport staff had prematurely written him off after a seven races... Thanks to three podiums (one a win), then a DNF and three non-podiums. But he returned to the form he had already displayed the first three races, and that's what won him the championship...)

fernando also cant handle being beaten by teammates and at both top notch teams (Mclarn, Ferrari) he has taken them both before WMSC in his first season with them

In 2007 Raikkonen initially had problems getting his tires warmed up in qualifying that was hurting him - despite being usually quicker than Massa in the races he was already behind. His launch control was also malfunctioning in the first few races and he had more mechanical problems in 2007 than Massa had. Unlike in 2008, Ferrari fixed the problems and Kimi was clearly the better and faster Ferrari driver during the last two thirds of the season. Most (me included) expected the trend to continue and what eventually happened in 2008 was a big surprise for us. Makes more sense today now that we know more though.

Wait a minute... So you lay the blame squarely at Alonso's feet? In this type of thing there is usually more than one party involved.

As a tifosi I blame the team for the mess that was Germany namely, Domenicali, Smedley and Massa. If it weren't for their petulence Ferrari wouldn't be facing the WMSC.

I wasn't to interested in the Mclaren thing back in 2007 but I would assume that the team had technical info regarding the Ferrari. Dennis went to Max after Alonso threatened him I believe. So blame the driver for what happened... It suits your agenda just fine. Or is it that you condone cheating when Mclaren is involved? Two teams have been labelled cheaters this year by none other than Mclaren and Mercedes fans and they have been calling for blood regarding the FIA.

I'm saying that the Kimi / Alonso pair at Ferrari never came true bcs of Alonso Santander.

Kimi is afraid of nobody in the 2nd seat, bcs he did a Senna and accepted to come in a team dominated by a strong driver like Schumy - before Monte kicked him out.

Common sense would say that Ferrari should replace Massa as 2010 was the last year of his contract.
However, Santander was also commercially interested in Massa promoting the bank in Brazil.

So Ferrari really sold both seats to Santander as the Kimi/Alonso combo would be technically the best solution, while the Massa/Alonso pair is the best financial one.

The big difference between 2007/2008 and 2010 is the car. Those years Ferrari had the best car where in 2010 Ferrari is hardly the 2nd car... In fact the only race when they were the team to beat was Germany.

Having a 17 points deficit in the last 2 races and winning is luck....
I don't want to excuse Alonso's performance this year. So far it was miserable by his standards. But it's not performing at the level of Massa as others did...

I agree more or less with what you wrote...
Still Kimi's performance at Ferrari was bad... I was expected more for him...

I would agree with you and would add that it seems that if Lewis Hamilton is in front of him he completely loses it.

I would have loved to see Alonso/Kimi in the same machinery, but it is just a pipe dream.

Also, I don't think that Massa will be at Ferrari for to much longer. Ferrari will be better off getting a straight number 2 driver. Unless Massa has already agreed to number 2 status, which is rather unlikely. The Schumi era was very successful in that way and in the end Alonso and his ego are happy, Ferrari are happy and the bank is happy. Big changes will be happening at Ferrari, I believe, with Alonso at the centre of it all.

How exactly is Fernando worth it for Santander. Santander dominates Spain, hence no need for Alonso. On the other hand, they're trying to break into Brazil. Massa would be helpful. Look at how Hamilton was helpful in the whole Abbey-Santander conversion in UK. So much that they've decided to keep sponsoring McLaren for 2010 because of his positive effect.

Santander wanted Alonso at Ferrari, there's no doubt. But I doubt that Alonso can bring Santander anything other than fame from driving from Ferrari and the usual WDC/WCCs.

This could please Alonso, for sure. However, don't forget that Alonso will do nothing if he doesn't get good machinery (which is true for all drivers).

In other words, I doubt the Schumacher era was great because of Ferrari's drivers' policy. All the elements were in harmony; strategic side, drivers' side, car performance, car reliability. Byrne, Todt, Brawn, Schumacher and of course a more influential Luca di Montezemolo.

All those guys are gone. Ferrari needs to recreate that harmony in order to dominate again. At this point, I doubt the driver(s) is (are) Ferrari's biggest worry. They have done well with Kimi, Massa in the past. They need more innovation from the technical side; all they've been doing is copying other teams' ideas (copying well, but copying nonetheless). Their strategic department has the occasional brain fades that Brawn never had in the past (Alonso in inters on Lap 2; Kimi on wet tyres on a dry track at Sepang, etc.). And so on and so forth.

That's why Ferrari is poaching guys all over the place at the moment. They need a breath of fresh air at Maranello... this is the first step towards total F1 domination. They just gotta take their blueprints from 1995-1996 and execute them again.

It's off topic but... The Ferrari tech department was brilliant of course but IMO the 1999-2004 domination was made possible more by a once in a century coincidence that Max, Bernie and Bridgestone were all teamed up for a reason or the other and that helped Ferrari to shoot down the opposition. Such an event is not likely to happen again any time soon.

All teams are copying from the RedBull and it's not uncommon. There have only been two innovations that I can think of this year. The F-duct and the Mercedes airbox. The current regulations don't allow for much innovation. There is an engine freeze, aero appendages are limited. In this day and age you need to get your chassis and weight distribution spot on from the get go of you want to be competitive. All the teams do these days is fiddle with the diffuser, suspension and wings to gain performance. Next year they are banning the DDD so there will be even less innovation.

And looking at the 2009 season, RedBull will dominate once more...

I hoped at least that they will cut this frozen engine sh!t...

This list don't prove anything else but how much costly mistakes Fernando Santander has made this year and it's his mistakes that will cost the chance for the title. Look how good he is doing despite how bad he has been -argument is little bit of paradoxical.

Of course he is not soley to blame do you think im an idiot? But in both cases he has played a large role. in 2007 he threatened Ron Dennis and blackmailed him to give him number 1 status or ill go and tell max so and so. And in Hockenheim he was on the radio complaining about Massa holding him up now if he had of playhed fair and kept his mouth shut not sook over the radio saying 'this is ridiculous' then Ferrari wouldn't be in this mess in my opinion. So jump to his defense all you want the facts still stand. For the last 3 years in a row Fernando has been in volved in some sort of trouble with WMSC. mclaren, the Renault race fix in 08, being caught about it in 09, and now going to WMSC again for team orders at Ferrari which HE pretty clearly demanded.

I dont find it a strange coincidence that he frequently finds himself infront of WMSC.

But that's exactly what happens, as far as I can see, isn't it?

You can cut your stupid brain errors, but to find more speed proved to be difficult for Kimi. Anyway Alonso still didn't cut his brain fades... so it's to early to drag a line...

Okay.

http://www.dhnet.be/sports/formule-1/artic...s-piranhas.html


From the Kimi Raikkonen thread, this interview with the Renault responsible Eric Boullier, brings this interesting piece:

"Fernando Alonso a provoqué pour moi la chute de l’écurie. Il n’était plus trop motivé d’investir dans une équipe qu’il savait qu’il allait quitter"

It was fernando alonso that provoked the fall of the team, in my opinion. He wasn't motivated anymore to invest in a team he knew he was going to quit.

I'm not jumping to his defence, I just find it strange that you blame him for it. Now if you had said himself, the team he drives for and the circumstances. Then I would be more than happy with it because it shows a certain level of open mindedness.

About the Mclaren incident, they have themselves to blame for being in that situation in the first place. Alonso was no doubt party to it all but bad team management played an even a bigger role than Alonso on his own, but I can understand your position as you are a Mclaren fan and Alonso is your scapegoat just like the unlucky engineer who got fired last year.

The team orders... It doesn't matter how much Alonso was ranting over the radio. He didn't make the call and he wasn't the one that convinced Massa to hand the position over. That was a team cock up and they find themselves in hot water because of the petulence displayed by Smedley and Massa. It was evident a switch would take place the minute Alonso got optimal pit strategy. You conveniently ignore the obvious because you want to indulge in an Alonso piss fest.

The Renault crashgate fiasco was a shame and scandalous. I have no doubt that he was involved in that. It's only a pity there was no evidence to prove it.

I don't read the brain-fade comment as being directed at you, but Kimi.

Dirty French, still part of the game.

Related to the root topic, If Ferrari made mistakes in driver's choice, I do think that Ferrari cold have got more title if it were to support Kimi fully instead of takinghike on massa. Please do not mistake, Massa is a fine driver, but sure he is not as good as Kimi. Kimi got the title at the first year. See, rated Alonso is havinghard time doing what Kimi has done.

... hummm,... not sure. Kimi wanted another year, and Domenicalli wanted Kimi as well, at least that is how I see it. I do tend to agree that it was MASSA who should have been replaced, not Kimi.

To to get back to the original question, Yes it was mistake, they should have formed Kimi/Alonso pair.

In a way Ferrrari/Santadair was afraid that Mc2007 will hit Ferrari garage, I assume. But hey Hamilton was UNPROVED back then while Kimi/Alonso knows each other's performance a lot better. So I would say both had completely different mentality facing the new season.

For Ferrari it was beneficial to keep the driver who achieved WDC and release who has missed. Formula One is a sport that result dictates, I thought.

The understatement of the F1 year mate! I can't Believe we have to put with seeing that git in the great Ferrari car for years more. Damn! Yes I miss Kimi, and well if you guys don't mind, I shall post a gif of Kimi on the podium at Spa season 2009.



A tear almost forms in me eye....

Of course if Massa wins a race I shall congratulate him. But he never won a title, Kimi did...

Double standards are double standards. Massa helped Kimi for the championship, Massa helped Alonso for the championship. All the same.

With that logic Raikkonen failed 8 out of the 9 seasons he had been in F1 right? Silliness.

Well they are in the same car are they not? Isn't it a bit silly to compare drivers in different cars?


The only thing that is clear is your lack of knowledge. And you're essentially denying what I have said. Wasn't Raikkonen leading after the first four races of that year?


Maybe Massa, Kimi and Alonso are all bad then? Is that any better for you?


Am I supposed to believe that the car is good enough to do that every single time? Or are you possibly getting confused with Raikkonen's craptacular 2008 season?

Well the Kimi-beater aka Massa isn't actually doing much in it is he?


Assuming you're right then it makes Kimi look even worse. You're unintentionally holding Alonso to such a high standard while continously exposing Raikkonen to his lower standards.

Um, Marlboro is STILL their title sponsor.

You think Ferrari are short of money and sponsorship? My..my...


Well you've certainly displayed your own deluded thoughts for your own comfort anyway.

I have been following the thread votes from the start,it seems the votes have been moving towards no.imo i think it was a mistake to replace kimi,i like alonso,i think he is a top f1 driver,but error prone this season like seb.do i think alonso is better than kimi?,im not sure,i think kimi makes alot less mistakes tho,which is very important in the wdc title

The day Alons wins a race the votes go the other way round again...

And then they introduced updates which didn't suit him even more. Combine that with sudden Todt's departure and we get a result.

Yeah, with one race to go and nº2 out of the fight, it is the same that half way around the season with driver 1 and 2 a race away from each other. Keep it real

Thanks for the gif - made my day!

Alos, Looks like Kimi Raikkonen is back to winning the POLLS. He's now leading, again!

Alonso was a good choice Ferrari made considering the Future, it's Massa that they got too emotional about. And then they go and repay the Faith by making him Number 2...!! WTF.

WDC Alonso & WDC Raikkonen driving a Ferrari would have been just awesome for their rivals to content with. The more so if they had to pay him 18million dollors, not to drive. No sense at all. It's better to have Two WDC's on-board than One, any day!!

Of course that's what would have made sense. But The Great Spanish Bank required Alonso and Alonso required no Raikkonen (i.e. requires #1 driver status). And so we have the absurd situation of one of the 3 best F1 drivers off driving in WRC while still being the highest paid F1 driver while being prohibited from driving any F1 car as stipulation in agreement that makes him highest paid F1 driver.

You're welcome mate,



Yea well he has my Royal vote.

Yeah, it really is a nutty situation, isn't it? I miss the Kimster. He had cool to spare. And he was a damn fast F1 driver. One of the best. It's just plain twisted that he's not there (and being payed to stay away). I really hope we get the pleasure of seeing him come back to F1.

I miss his honesty, safety, and speed. Fast as hell but consistent and exceptional ability to not do things that cause crashes. Button's a likable bloke with many of these characteristics although not the same speed. But generally feels like Kimi left a vacuum behind as far as class and quality of driving in F1. Hamilton's quick as hell but comes across as partly out of risk-taking. Kimi wasn't risk taker and yet look how he could be the clear absolute fastest during times like entire 2nd half of 2007 and maybe even 2009 if factor how poor the pace of car he was driving was. Seems like everyone else other than maybe Kubica and Button are bunch of maniacs with none of the grace. And he was my favorite to listen to in interviews etc -- when he talked you actually got the feeling you weren't being fed a bunch of crap -- complete honesty.

I think Ferrari was right to let Raikkonen go. His recent statements suggest that he is happy rallying and not keen on returning to F1.

More's the pity, because F1 could surely use a character like him. Go Kimi Go!

Which sounds like the Contract of the century any given day. Imagine being paid 18 Million by an organization, but with no Boss to report to. Brilliant Robertsons. WRC with RedBull was a great move too.

Although I think/feel, Steve would be a bit disappointed with himself if he can't find a good drive for Raikkonen in F1 for 2011-12. I think Kimi was only considering RBR as a good choice, but the signing of Webber has made it quite easy for him to choose Rally over F1. Seems like Steve wants Kimi back in F1, but he knows it's upto him to bring Kimi a good drive, for him to change his mind about Rallying.

What do you think Steve is upto, coz Raikkonen could have confirmed otherwise, either way?

Waiting to see Renaults progress for a few more races and then decide on their prospects with Renault. Renault would be delighted if they can get Raikkonen for 6 million a year- 2 year contract. That ways, Renault will have a WDC on-board as well as Kubica, who both be strong Title Contenders.

So it's Ferrari's fault for having more faith in Kimi's talent than the amount of talent he actually had?


Would you put money on Massa winning the championship?

Why 6 million?

That was a very good day. Thanks for the gif.

F1 needs Kimi back especially with the driving being so weak this year.