When things go wrong always going to be criticism. It will disappear the minute Alonso starts winning again which I think it's going to be soon.

How do you describe a superior driver? Having a superior backing from a superior bank or winning championships by getting results?

And please explain how Ferrari is doing just fine? Are you the voice of the management or the tifosis? If your'e a long time tifosi, which I doubt, please talk to other tifosis and say that Ferrari is doing fine and that you and they should be satisfied since this is the best you can do.

Massa exposed kimi and reduced him to being a no.2 at Ferrari. How will a Alonso/Kimi combo be more devastating than Alonso/Massa?

Well, if Massa could "expose" Alonso aswell perhaps he too could win the championship.

Oh... I guess it was Massa who won the World Championship and Kimi was just the no.2 driver

Don t think letting Räikkonen go was a mistake... In 2008 and 2009 he had problems to beat Massa.

you also must be suffering from selective amnesia, the championship was more gifted than deserved

I take it you are a Massa fan. I'm not going down this route. The Massa/Kimi rivalry has been discussed to death. And yes, I rate Kimi higher than Massa.

I really doubt that great drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Kubica and even Vettel who are expected to be faster than their teammates by the press and fans can really accept to be beaten. Kimi is the only real exception

Can you imagine what would have happened in Hamilton's head if Button had beaten him and won his third win of the season against of 0 wins for him!!, in that straight fight between him and Button in Turkey this year? It would have ended with Mclaren's harmony, similar to Red Bull now...

And what was Räikkonen doing in first half of 2009? He had even not the half of points of Massa, when he crashed in Hungary...

I don't think Alonso's the type who needs a quick teammate to push him (bringing out safety cars is something different entirely). Fisico was for the most part nowhere near him at Renault; by 2006 -- IMO his best season-performance by a distance -- Alonso had put Giancarlo in a box. Alonso lives off the pressure he creates for himself, when someone like Hamilton disrupted this cycle, his ego responded very aggressively. He has this Mario Andretti or Michael Schumacher-like need to believe he's in control of the team, giving the car 0.6 seconds of additional pace, and leaving them unsentimentally when something better comes along. It was interesting that unlike Montoya and Williams, there was no big moment when Alonso decided he wanted to leave his championship-winning Renault squad, he just saw himself more likely to be three-time World Champion at Mclaren.

So long as Massa plays the little-brother role at Ferrari, they'll be harmonious. But given that Alonso even claimed at one point that Renault were favouring Fisichella over him in the 2006 title run-in, should he be knocked out of his mental stride by an uncontrollable talent on the other side of the garage, he's likely to 'snap' again. And as Alain Prost demonstrated, you only get one chance with the Scuderia.

I'd say the fans are not as stupid as some make them out to be. I think they can see for themselves this year that Kimi was not the problem. We're in 2010 and since 2004 there has only been one WDC in Ferrari and that is... Guess who, that is the million dollar question. Perhaps there will be another one this year but I don't think so, even though I might be wrong. You can always say that it's the car but c'mon we are taking about Ferrari, the greatest team ever. One champion in 6 years and that was a drunken ice cream eating overrated driver, yeah right. You stick to your beliefs and I'll stick to mine.

Hogwash, Kimi won 4 or 5 races and had several podiums with 1 dnf in the last 10 races. I suppose if Alonso wins this years championship it will be gifted as well. What I can tell you is that Massa performances this year is undeserving of a Ferrari drive.

Are there any other kinds of championship wins than "gifted"? I guess your'e referring to DNFs, mental meltdowns and other happenings? Perhaps you only consider real wins like -05 and -06 when the winner had a superiour car almost as good as the difference between RBR and Lotus (perhaps not quite that advantageuos but I think you get the picture)? And don't even try to say that Alonso don't need to have a superiour car to win because we all witnessed -07 and even this year what happens when he doesn't have that advantage.

A lot of people are surprised at all the mistakes he makes but it only shows how little they know and how overrated he actually is. I for one am not surprised at all, I saw this coming a long way.

As a Ferrari fan I'm glad Alonso is driving for them. I rate him very highly. I just would have preferred Kimi as his team mate. Kimi was awesome when the car was right for him.

Fanboy? Have you read my posts? I'm a Ferrari fan, I actually don't support a specific driver. Sorry to burst your bubble. Also how would Alonso winning this year be any different? They in practically the same position at the same stage in the championship.

It took Massa's injury to suddenly wake up Kimi, compared to Badoer and Fisi he was always going to look better. Had Massa been in the car Ferrari would have finished comfortably 3rd in the WCC.

It is curious, but there are supposedly "Ferrari Fans" say Ferrari should have never hired a driver like Alonso because he is making many mistakes and bringing Ferrari down, but they never criticise Massa, never is blamed...Why?
Why are they so obsessed with blaming Alonso?

Luckily, not all Ferrari and Massa Fans are like them

I would say your'e a fair and honest in your posts without lowering yourself to bashing. But saying that Kimi's only good in a good car is something that's been fed to the fans by people/press to justify why Ferrari wanted to replace him.

The proof is what he did in the second part of last year. Even the mechanics said that he performed beyond what the car was able to do, and that was in a car that wasn't developed after the summer. I would say it's not what a driver who need a good car would do. I do however agree that his tenure at Ferrari was not as good as expected due to various reasons.

Raikkonen lacked or was unwilling to do the politics that make you look good even when your'e actually not. Some drivers are better at that and that is the main thing why this year Ferrari/s drivers are, not yet, beeing blamed for the non results this season.

But when the results are not produced in the long term the Ferrari team will not accept to be the scapegoats.

you should read your own posts on this thread, they came across as very fanboyish to me, alonso needs loads of luck no denying that, but a couple of things he does not have going for him, intra team rivalry/tensiosn (drivers and boss at each others throat), a rookie driver leading the championship, so the circumstances are a little bit different.

you have no clue about what you are talking about , you really need to watch the 05 and 06 seasons again.

You make total sense. Of course we should discount what a fanboy says but adopt without questions the statement of a Kimi basher. While you are at it, how about a reality check and review of recent comments by Haug and Whitmarsh which seem to suggest that Kimi is considered still a top tier driver. One can wonder what Kimi would have produced in the improved Ferrari given Stefano's comments last year that he was perfect in a fast car. Well, in fact he was close to perfect in a not so perfect car once the team had no choice but listen to his input from mid-season on. So if anything, Ferrari fans have everything to be sorry about him not being with the team. As for being fine without Ross, the comedy that Ferrari management has provided over the last couple of years has been priceless. Let them continue as is, it's too funny for some to watch. Well perhaps not for the tifosi but life isn't always fair, is it?

i am not a massa fan, never was, but i have to defend him against annoying, delusional rabid kimi fanboys, who think alonso/kimi combo is a match made in heaven, when all the evidence points to the contrary, considering massa had kimi in his back pocket for most of their time together an alonso/kimi combo would be a real downgrade.

You can't compare this year to last year. This year Ferrari have invested a lot more than previous years, they started developing the car in mid -09, they have a higher budget and more manpower than any other team. The other big teams have already started to downsize their organisation, something that is in next years regulations. Ferrari hasn't done that because they have gone all out, more or less, for this season. Next year will be more difficult for them due to adaptation to the new rules and thus not having the advantage they enjoy this season. Also it will be a more dramatic change because the other top teams have done it more progressively.

If you haven't noticed this is the reason why Ferrari are a bit desperate because if they can't catch up to Red Bull and McLaren how will they be able to do it next year when they will have to change all their working operations.

You could say they have invested all in this season and the results are really depressing and specifically they have invested/trust in Alonso to be the one to deliver them the title/s.

Ok, will watch them again even if I have them in fresh memory. But tell me when has he impressed after that? And don't tell me about the 2 wins in -08 that will just get me started even more.

Was referring to 2007

My mistake!

Fanboy is term thrown around too losely on this bb. If you had read my posts with an open mind I'm sure you would have arrived at a different conclusion. Also if you think there won't be tensions in Mclaren and Red Bull this season you are in for a surprise especially since the team mates are so close in the standings. Do you think that Jenson or Webber won't take the smallest gap available to them on track if it means getting the upper hand in championship now that we are approaching the business end of it? This season is far from over and I for one am awaiting the intra-team battles. Ferrari have it slightly easier as they should back Alonso now.

He's in the WRC and having a ball of a time there, I'm sick of people dredging up the past and having any excuse to have a bashfest and arguing about Kimi vs. Massa over and over and over.....

Any new topic with "Kimi" in the title is just an open invitation for bashers to come pick at the scabs of Kimi-fans.

An obvious right decision. I do use Massa as a benchmark.

Massa before accident =/= Massa after accident
It seems pretty clear for me, and I'm not a furious Kimi fan...

Kimis errors per race < Alonso errors per race
that is my favourite benchmark

It would be very very veeeeeeeery close between them, but as soon as Fernando would unblindfold the one who wouldn't be able to see Alonso would be Kimi

As a KR supporter, I still believe it was the right decision.

People can waste another year with thousand my driver is better than your driver debates, doesn´t matter. Nobody knows if Alonso is better than Räikkönen, or vice versa. Both won the WDC and performed at top level for years.

But the fact is, on top of Santander, Alonso was willing to commit for 3 years. With Kimi it was "aww maybe I´ll stick around for one more year, I´ll let you know at the last minute". If we forget loyalty etc, and simply think about this as business call, these factors must tip the scale for Alonso. Keeping Kimi would have made sense only if you assumed he was significantly better, to compensate for lack of Santander + his refusal to accept longer contract (something he was offered several times after winning the WDC in 2007).

Now I´m sure Alonso fanboys will attack me for suggesting it wasn´t all about their driver simply being better than Kimi, and then Kimi fans will attack Alonso fans for putting their driver down.

Please let me run and hide before that

Guys, cut the personal attacks.

You cant compare different seasons. Massa isnt performing well after his crash simple as that. No way of knowing how well the car suits him compared to how it did in previous years.

If you blatantly cross reference seasons and think they are apples for apples comparisons, then anything less than the WDC for Alonso this year (especially after Ferrari focused on this years car longer than any other team) is a fail for Alonso when compared to Kimi. Not very logical hey.

Likewise, Alonso has been way too error prone and hot headed in the car. He did show flashes of brilliance in the early races though, he needs to regain that.

Lot more deserved than Ferries 2 bogus cheating championships.

Right.

I don't think Kimi would have done any better than Alonso this year. I don't think he'd have done any worse either but I just think Kimi was done with Ferrari and Domenicali in general.

Alonso seems pretty fed up at the mo but he is slowly getting the team behind him.

Well Kimi isn't a hot head and would neither demand his engineer get on the horn to Whiting or spend the whole race fuming at another racer to his own detriment - that for example is something Alonso has done this year that shows a marked difference between them. Their mentalities are different on that front. Maybe that accounts for the difference in mistakes (Alonso putting more pressure on himself at the moment and his emotions higher).
Alonso is more press friendly - and if Ferarri was doing well, that could prove a benefit. I always got the feeling Kimi was very patient about getting the car right - even if it took too long, and to his detriment. Whereas Alonso is ready to go cowboy style if necessary. But the results are similar in those cases so far, so I couldn't tell you one method is better than the other.

I'm an Alonso fanboy and actually I consider your post to be very very fair. Like fresh water in a desert of blows between people in extreme positions.


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About Alonso, I think he's in a bad moment. But he has just joined Ferrari. Give him a little more time. The team seems to love him and there were not meaningful problems within the team.

Only a very biased person would consider that Alonso is falling down in a dark hole. Cuz he'll be back at his usual "mistake-less" form so typical of him. All drivers had times when they made mistakes. Hamilton, Schumacher, Kimi too.

What? Kimi's results for the last 10 races in 2007 were: 1-1-2-2-RET-3-1-3-1-1, the retirement happening while running in third place. He had great second half of the season, just like he had in 2009, once Massa was out of the way and Ferrari had to listen to him. One could also argue that Alonso's WDC in 2005 was gifted, since Kimi's Mercedes engines kept blowing up constantly.

I don't know if they were right or wrong in replacing Kimi, but Alonso, while being fast, surely has not delivered. Alonso was brought in because he works better than Kimi with technical staff and can develop the car. He is communicative, open and talks a lot. Well, in 2009 Ferrari started the season with a crappy car, and once Massa got injured and Kimi got his way with the car, he was scoring podiums and a win in a car, that had it's development frozen before mid season. Kimi's teammates LB and GF were seconds off Kimi's pace and didn't score one single point or make it to the Q3 even once. This year Ferrari started with a very good car. It was second best at least. It has been steady downhill since then and Alonso will score less points and podiums than Kimi did in 2009 in that bath tub called the F60.

it seemed like massa got hit in the head and kimi woke up, after that he seemed to find a way with the f60 and get alot out of it. maybe they found alot with the setup as the car was stable rather than ever changing...

from the outside looking in, seems like when kimi performed badly it was cos he was asleep/disinterested, and with fred its cos hes trying too hard, seems like his teflon is shedding too...

The hat or the goggles?

In 2008 Kimi went from leading championship to not scoring any points for several races when they switched to new suspension that suited Massa better. When they switched the suspension back, Kimi retuned to competitive as before. Perhaps while Massa was driving in 2009 there was similar negative impact that went away as soon as Ferrari had only Kimi to make setup for.

It's quite obvious that Massa isn't performing as well anymore. He's not the same driver as before, wether or not that's because of the crash I don't know.

FTW!!

Agreed, it was a case of asset mismanagement by Ferrari. They bought a $51MM/year machine, didn't oil it, and wondered why it wasn't producing.

Of couse, this isn't a widely held nor a popular view. Since if a company is paying absurds amounts of money for something, it *must* mean that they're already maximizing that particular something. There will be arguments such as "they aren't paying him only not to listen to him."

In contrast, they took Fernando in with the mindset that they are going to make him the centerpiece of the team. Perhaps this is also due to the commitment that Fernando is willing to give to the team even before he got in there, like Spunout has articulated several posts above. This is something that the Domenicali era is not (was never?) willing to do with Kimi due to differing management and working styles.

What's more imporant than the act of hiring Fernando himself is the mindset of the team upon hiring him, just like Yamaha's mindset upon hiring Valentino in 03 - they went in with a "ok, this is really going to be it" mentality. That's the reason why even as a Kimi supporter I don't really object to the hiring of Fernando, since they didn't want to change just the driver, they also wanted to change their mentality and focus, and if I dare say it, even the culture. They wanted Fernando not just to be the driver, they also wanted him to be the leader, the focus of the team, the number one. Heck, even as the team cook, the team motivator, team cheerleader, and team car developer overlapping with designer.

Why are tifosi always looking to blame their drivers for their woes? Alonso is the 2nd best driver on the grid; give him the right car, and the right team environment, and he will deliver a WDC. Jeez.

I think they were right (wheres an emotion with $$ in its eyes)! But I also think Alonso is messing this chance up for himself, maybe down to the stress. I wish he would wake up and put on a show either way to be honest, either start showing us some decent over taking or throw his dolls out of his pram again. Ferrari as a whole this year seem rather dull.

They were right. 100% right. It`s a marriage made in heaven and they deserve each other. Two of a kind..

And for Pedro Martinez de la Rosa too!

I prefer to use 1 WDC and 2 WCC´s as a benchmark