You are entitled to believe that his off was staged.

But really, Massa slowed down before the stop? Watching live timing, I distinctly remember purples prior to his stop. Of course, if on his in lap, if (big if) he slowed down considerably, I definitely didn't catch it then. I have no lap time archive for the race, do you? Or are you also going by memory? I guess it's my recollection against yours then.

No, because the 2008 Ferrari was an evolution of the previous year's car so therefore there'd be similar characteristics between them. I never said unthinkable, more unlikely. Don't get all bitchy about it, it's unnecessary.

It's rather your recollection against Massa's statement.

Well, Massa was mentally prepared to give up position in Brazil, so he probably sees the event like he did hand the lead to Kimi on plate, but unfortenately in reality he was pushing like hell and made a mistake which cost him the lead and thus a chance to gave up his position in a way that everybody would see it was a team order - like he did in Germany this year, remember?
If you watched that German GP this year, how on earth you could even for a second think that Massa - in Brazil of all places - would disguise team orders by driving wide? why would he do that infront of his own fans if he has balls to execute team orders like he did this year in Germany? Come on, we all know that Massa needed eventually move away if he was ahead Kimi in last laps and WDC was still possible for KR, but clearly he would have made similar case of it as he did this year with Fernando in Germany just for making a point.

It is not impossible at all, it depends on how much you value the marketing impact of your sponsorship, and it is not reported as part of the P&L account.

As for Lehman and Santander, they are very different animals, subject to different regulations - and Santander has much less room for manoeuvre when it comes to "reckless accounting".

Massa didnt slow down at all. His laps after pitstop were his fastest laps of the race untill that moment, he did 1:12.9, after Kimi emerged ahead, he lost interest and started to lap in 1:15s :-), only to find his interest back at two laps to go to score fastest lap, which he ultimately failed

2007 was the refuelling era, it was a two stop race so Massa didn't have to move over like he did in Germany this year...


And I thought Ferrari were only trying to trick the Brazilian fans

So you call him a liar, I guess. Sugar-coated, but still.

Massa has played the team game proper for all of 2006, and at the end of 2007. That's his standard. The pathetic Germany showing was the odd thing, presumably because it was so early (and, at my personal guess, because he didn't like the way Alonso took over the team, which I don't blame him for).

In Brazil, Massa had created an over 3 sec gap before his "mistake". I agree Massa knew he had to give way eventually, and contrary to Germany this year he was fully prepared for it. Creating a gap was him making the point that he had the pace to win, IMO. And the "mistake", come on, it looked about as genuine as what MS did in Monaco 2006, if not worse.

What mistake are you talking about?

Massa and Kimi never raced at ten tenths against each other in Brazil 2007. With Hamilton out of the picture and Alonso just too slow, it was a simple matter of carrying on until the second stops to be sure it wasn't too obvious or that Massa wouldn't give the win away needlessly.

Kimi's fastest lap there means nothing really.

So, because the 2008 Ferrari was an evolution of the previous year's car so therefore there'd be similar characteristics between them, it's unlikely that Kimi, in the 2007 Brazilian GP, would have been able to pull off a pit-later-set-purples-emerge ahead scenario, noting in mind having already done it in USA (Heidfeld), FRA (Massa), GBR (Hamilton and Alonso), ITA (Hamilton), and also having done it on the following year 08 in MAL (Massa).

Even if I didn't add those things that I did, which was what you were quoting anyway, only that the quoted part from Nivra only mentioned France and Silverstone, it doesn't make sense. Since 07 Ferrari and 08 Ferrari have similar characteristics, Kimi can't have legitimately leapfrogged in Brazil 07? What? Mind filling in the large chasm?

Taking into consideration those things that I added, which were just additions to the bit you quoted and bolded, well all I can say is that your claim, in the face of circumstances, remains as brilliant as ever.

About the bitching, it's my replacement reaction for banging my head into the wall upon the sight of something utterly absurd. I assure you I am trying very hard to stop, but I require primarily your cooperation.

I see your theme all along in this most recent exchange is that the leapfrog couldn't have been legitimate, it was given by Massa, it was a big charade. Mind articulating your position here, so we can pick it apart? Hell, I bet if you did I'd find some parts that I would definitely agree with, no sarcasm here. Snarking your way around with 1-liners create the impression that your arguments, as they are, are a load of baloney.



Massa's recollection doesn't necessarily (*) go with the lap times and events that have happened in the race, under my assumption that his off wasn't deliberate, and that he didn't slow down on his in lap which I wasn't taking notice of.

Massa's recollection goes along with the theory, or belief, that the race was given to Kimi even before qualifying has started. He gave the win (assuming all that goes well in the race). By qualifying lighter. Even if he sets purples which are faster than Kimi's (they were not), by having to pit 3 laps earlier, presumably while on the lead cause he got pole (which was the case). I still see this as "giving" or "planning" or "team ordering" the win to Kimi, only not on track, but on the briefing room.

*He said that he gave the win to Kimi alright. But how? Did he pull over on track? No he didn't. Did he stage an off? Well, it's your call whether to believe the off is staged. He never said how. The answer is that he gave up the win, by having to pit 3 laps earlier. Which wasn't really in his control. Or stage an off, which was in his control. Which you're free to believe.



The problem is that once he peeled into the pits and after he came out with a tanker of fuel, Kimi was eating 3+ seconds off Massa per lap for 3 laps by virtue of his better strategy. And the off, if you have seen it, where he ran wide on a left hander, for the life of me I cannot remember if it was T3, or the penultimate corner up the climb, or somewhere in the twisty bits, took no more than 4 seconds of his current laptime.

Well, to this I half agree. They never raced at ten tenths against each other on track. But prior to pitstops I saw Massa stringing purples. Not "set a single purple," but "set a string of purples." And prior to his stop, it was Kimi stringing purples as well. There was a game of leapfrogging going on, definitely, and it's because of this thing I've seen that makes me believe that Kimi's fastest lap meant something - both guys were racing ten tenths against each other not on track, but on the pitting game.

Well, 2002 was in refuelling era too, didnt stop Barrichello to show for everybody that he could beat Michael and then "for championship" step aside in last lap.

Theres no refuelling anymore, but everyone needs to pit at least once to fill the tyre regulations (using both tyres available for GP) so your point is quite irrelevant, Massa could have handed his P1 during tyre change to Fernando but he choose not to.

BTW I dont think Ferrari were trying to trick Brazilian fans, even most hard-core nationalist indivduals would understand that winning a one GP isnt as important as winning the WDC, eh?
Now Massa wasnt anymore in WDC battle in last race of 07, he was mathematically out of it, so only a total morons would have get upset seeing Massa and Kimi swaping positions there in any given way - even by Massa slowing down and wawing his arm as a signal for Kimi to pass him. In Germany this year Massa wasnt out of the title chase yet, so it was much worse case, thus all the protesting about it. But hey, if Nelsinho drove his car purposly to the wall in order to gift a win for Fernando, then this Germany -10 was nothing... Massa just gave away a win he had earned to a guy who didnt earn it while both were still title contenders.

I wouldnt call him a liar, but saying "I gave my position to Kimi so he could win WDC, even if I had him covered" looks much better in your CV than "I made a mistake and Kimi beat me, better luck for me next time". These guys are humans too, if they can do something good for their career by twisting facts a bit - they will. Does that really surprise you?

Problem is that Massa actually admitted that he let Kimi win.

That is bullshit. Massa was trying his best to not let Kimi through during the pitstops. The laptimes show this.

Problem is that everything that was seen in the race seen point away from this, Felipe never had Kimi covered on track. If you want to insist on it, then there would be some assumptions.

No problem if you want to assume. Assume that some sort of self sabotage went on unseen (e.g. that his off on that left hander in between his purples was deliberate, he slowed down on his outlap, what have you). We can agree to disagree here

No problem if Massa admitted he let Kimi win in the pre race briefing by agreeing to take on less fuel and agreeing to the team strategy.

I really think you're trying to hard with explanations to avoid facing the most likely scenario. Massa led, he was pulling away, at the same time everyone knew that he had to give up the win eventually. Suddenly he runs wide in most awkward style in a pretty unusual place, eradicating most of the gap to KR. Then it's pit stop time and Massa's first laps afterwards are really slowish, KR pits and emerges ahead. Hurray, what happy coincidence that they are now in the right order, who would have thought?

Did any of that really surprise you?

Except they were not.

Well, I see you subscribe to the pieces of self-sabotage strewn across the race bit, especially the slow outlaps, since I agree he was doing 3+ seconds slower than Kimi there. I believe it's purely the pace differential between a car on fumes and a heavy car, but there's this very little (for me) possibility that Massa tanking his outlaps indeed.

I guess to each his own. At least your position on the matter is settled.

Of course he did, it looks better in his CV, doesnt it?

While we are at it, if you believe everything drivers say, then how about accepting Massas statement: "Alonso is no faster than Kimi"?

Do you have, even from memory, the times? As I have no recollection of Massa's outlaps, only that Kimi was setting purples while Massa was trundling around with a heavy car.

Massa was pulling away because he was lighter, after he stopped he was slower and falling backwards. If he had to finish race behind Kimi (he sure did had to) , then what is the most likely scenario?

1. Drive as fast as you can but make a small excursion so that team mate can pass you and most people dont understand that you were "DA MAN".

2. Be a man and beat team mate on track and give him his damned win so he could get that WDC, but do it in away that everybody understands you had beat him to the ground, but agreed to do a favour for your team.

You could bet your house that Massa wouldnt choose to do scenario #1 if he could choose #2.

O I C. Thanks.

So I recall incorrectly then. Oh well. The "Kimi making up 3 seconds per lap for 3 laps on Massa since he has a heavy car." Changes some bits in my arguments. I guess with this we can say that IF Massa's off was deliberate, then it was crucial, then this gave Kimi the track position.

With the benefit of hindsight, looking at the pitstop summary, Massa pitting on lap 50/71 gives him fuel to last the race, heavier than fumes, but new tires. Whereas Kimi setting purples was on fumes but old tires. So Kimi is still faster, but not as much as I have ASS U ME d. Less than a second per lap perhaps? I guess some data would be helpful here. I was too busy yelping at Kimi's purples during the race.

So I guess this seals off the "Massa was tanking his outlap" angle but the "Massa staged his off" is alive and kicking.

Writing the "Massa staged his off" will have to take the somewhat reaching but nevertheless reasonable psychological approach, c/o above post.



Oh yeah thanks. Awesome site. My bad with that "trundling around with a heavy car." He definitely did not tank his outlaps. Which makes sense, as he had the new tyres to push. Those 2 laps after the pitsop were only a fraction slower than Kimi's purples prior to his stop

Massa's off was on lap 44 I see. 2 second loss. Kimi came out ahead by less than 2 definitely. The angle is alive.

Massa tried to take FL in the final lap. A statement? Massa stages an off, tries to take FL to show em who's boss, makes a bit of sense. Not outside the realms of possibility.

Here you can see the times:

http://www.f1matrix.it/gp_2007_eng/17/pc.html

Notice that Massa pushed really hard for two laps after his second pitstop, I guess to keep Kimi behind. Or what was his reason?

I'd really like to see the interview where Massa said the above. I tried Googling the phrase, but all it brings up is more forum topics like this one. Could you give us a link please?

Hehe, check out Malaysia back then.

and Istanbul, both of those he held up Michael behind him.

For all those with short memories and with intention for bashing a driver:
Go watch Malaysia 2008.

Then come here again.

there is several ones because he has said it many times during this season, at least on gazetta dello sport and the latest one was at least released here on autosport.com and mtv3.fi here you can find the latest interview, link: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88141

yeah there Kimi destroyed Massa totally during the race and Massa couldn't even keep the car on track when trying to keep up with Kimi

"No," he told the EPE news agency when asked if Alonso was his toughest challenge, "I've had three [teammates] all at the same highest level.

"I don't need to say anything about Schumacher because his career speaks for itself. Kimi was also excellent. I see all three of them on the same level."

http://www.patronisef1.com/index.php/f1-ne...-best-team-mate

Massa also said there were no team orders in Germany.

Team radio - "Sorry for winning guys"

Bw careful speaking the thruth around here
hehehehehe ......... hehehehehe

I thought that it was a known fact that accepting that you bent the rules after the season is over does not change the season standings, but doing so while it is still on could have consequences (see Singapore 2008). So, before you use that as an argument, why don't you wait to hear what Massa has to say in a few more months?

Staged off??

Who in their right mind would think of such a thing? Ferrari needed Massa to finish behind Raikkonen to prevent Hamilton from being Champion, having a "staged" off has serious risk implications, he could pick up a puncture, damaged the underside, the possibilities are endless, more so, it could be possible he could even lose control of the car and then the Championship could have been lost. I doubt this "staged" off is true, even more, I've never heard anything about this before now. There just isn't anything factual about it, certainly, there's less fact in that story as to say that Kimi overtook Massa i the pits on merit, the Kimi one seems a far more credible scenario, even if I believe Ferrari choreographed the whole pit stop sequence in Brazil beautifully. The fact that Kimi just might have had enough in the bag to take Massa in the pits, is a genuine possibility, the story gathers strength when we see the lap times, and consider Massa's attitude.

LOL!

That's like a dagger right into the heart of an Alonso fan!!

First: An Alonso fan believes Alonso is better than Schumacher, right there it says same level, so, no better?

Second: All at the same level brings Raikkonen to the same level which is like insulting their mother or something!!

I love it, they believe everything they read, but we will see them conveniently not count this one!

Massa did help Kimi win. Raikkonen's win was all about the start and this is where Massa helped. He and Raikkonen executed the perfect pick on Hamilton to put him back into the clutches of Alonso, Raikkonen's hesitation sealed the deal allowing Alonso to take Hamilton. From there Hamilton did the rest. Massa deserves credit for his team play here.

Massa set a fast pace from the front but never opened a real gap on Kimi who looked to have Massa covered. Their pit strategy worked putting Kimi in front and he took the wdc. Massa saying three years later he moved over is a bit revisionist I would say.

Having said all that, if for any reason Massa was still leading in the final stages of the race he would have found a way to let Kimi through. But it never came to that. The idea that Massa staged his slip to allow Kimi to close in is too high risk of a maneuver in this situation, he was needed to finish the race behind Kimi to take that last point away from Hamilton.

Ps. http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category...6507531RerF4G58 nice video of the start. Check out Hamiltons off behind Heidfeld at 3:58, I always thought this caused his transmission problem shortly after.
Ps2. Watching the start of 2007 shows how well Kimi and Massa executed as a team. This is a total contrast to the situation at Ferrari now. I can't see this kind of cooperation happening with Alonso and Massa.

Considering that Alonso has won in more teams than Schumacher and has driven very different cars in his career, maybe he still could be? What's to say that he isn't? Hasn't the way the Mercedes handled killed MS's comeback?


Well, I say results say more than opinions, no? We know Massa hasn't been dominated by his teammate since 2006, yes?

He said he did what he did for the team, just as in Interlagos 2007.

Why, in case he tells a different truth ? I responded to a poster intimating that something was true simply because Massa said it was true, if in a few months Massa were to admit there were team orders that would only reinforce my point, him already having said on or around the 25th July that it wasn't team orders.

He also said

“In my opinion this was not a case of team orders: my engineer kept me constantly informed on what was going on behind me, especially when I was struggling a bit on the hard tyres: so I decided to do the best thing for the team, and a one-two finish is the best possible result, isn’t it?”


Edited to provide link: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11071.html

Germany 2010:

"For sure we don't have team orders, so we just need to do the race that we can and if you see that you cannot do the race that you can, you need to think about the team"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85561

Your point?

Alonso is better than kimi. Since this is Ferrari and neither driver is Italian, it was "right". But I like how you tried to hide "who has a better chance to win for ferrari kimi or alonso" behind the vague, mealy mouthed "was it right or wrong", knowing how ridiculously ambiguous such a question is.

As the Anti-Schumacher that I am, I'd love it if Alonso ended his career better than Schumacher's!! Still, he drives for Ferrari, which must be hated!

Anyway, who cares who dominated who, the fact is, Massa has the inside scoop, and if he says he believes they're all in the same level, then, even if one of them stands out relative to the others, it's not by much Which is correct anyway, anybody with real racing knowledge will see it pretty much the same, the "my driver is better than yours" crap is kids play.

Thank you so much. Straight from the horse's mouth, then. This is as close as we're going to get to the truth.

Funny, a few posts above Massa's claims about Brazil '07 were basically dismissed, but when he talks favourably about KR it's gospel.

Shouldn't the facts/results at least support your simple viewpoint?