The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > Mercedes GP - the 2010 Silver Arrows (Merged)

Mauseri

Dec 4 2009, 13:25

QUOTE (Rob @ Dec 4 2009, 17:17)

Can we drop the word "proven" then? It's completely unnecessary in that context.

Well, there are some winners who take wins at a slow rate, like 1 win per year in a strong car, I think they are not proven winners. For example Kovalainen or Fisichella.

The Ragged Edge

Dec 4 2009, 13:34

QUOTE (ex Rhodie racer 2 @ Dec 4 2009, 13:10)

Who deserved a winning car before getting one? Hamilton? Why? He stepped into the best seat in F1 from the getgo. Being a winner in another formula hardly qualifies you for a winning seat in F1, or have I got that wrong?
Button? Why? He was the perennial loser until he lucked out with the very team you now have your doubts about. One win in, how many years?
Heidfeld has done everything he could with the material at his disposal, always beating his far more touted team mates. There is a very good reason Nick has never found a winning drive. Firstly, his loyalty and belief in the teams he’s been with, and secondly, he’s a quiet man, something mistaken for being dour and uninteresting.
Well, if you are going to judge a driver by his public persona, then yes, Heidfeld has probably got what he’s deserved. But if your criteria is his ability behind the wheel of a F1 car, then he is the most deserving man in the paddock for the other Merc seat.

F1 is full of drivers having championship winning cars and doing diddly squat with them. Just ask Rubens, Vettel and Webber. All had a shot at the title and for varying reasons failed at what Button managed to achieve. So stop beating down on Hamilton as per usual.

Gilles4Ever

Dec 4 2009, 13:37

Please keep it on topic - Hamilton has nothing to do with Mercedes GP.

Rob

Dec 4 2009, 15:40

QUOTE (Bianchimont @ Dec 4 2009, 13:15)

If they have won races, they are proven winners. Simple as that.

QUOTE (Bianchimont @ Dec 4 2009, 13:25)

Well, there are some winners who take wins at a slow rate, like 1 win per year in a strong car, I think they are not proven winners. For example Kovalainen or Fisichella.

santori

Dec 4 2009, 15:41

Jean-Louis Moncet says in passing (the rest of the article's about Kimi's move) that he's been told that Nick has another meeting with Mercedes on Monday.

Ural

Dec 4 2009, 16:05

QUOTE (robracer @ Dec 4 2009, 16:48)

Weber 'can't imagine' Schumi at Mercedes

But I do! Michael in Silver Arrow would be a massive lift for F1! Schumi, come on!

craftverk

Dec 4 2009, 16:08

What rubbish. What if Schumacher returns and is mediocre? It's never going to happen people, just leave it already.

alecc

Dec 4 2009, 16:09

QUOTE (Ural @ Dec 4 2009, 17:05)

But I do! Michael in Silver Arrow would be a massive lift for F1! Schumi, come on!

Is there anybody that really thinks, that the second seat will take somebody else than Nick?
That would be maybe the shock whereof Jon Noble wrote a few months ago on twitter ;)

beute

Dec 4 2009, 16:10

Kobayashi and Heidfeld would be my favorites.

I really hope one of them gets the seat.

slideways

Dec 4 2009, 16:17

QUOTE (Bianchimont @ Dec 4 2009, 23:45)

If they have won races, they are proven winners. Simple as that.

In F1 context a proven race winner is someone who has won on credit, not trundled along and took the flag once, when half the grid fell off in front of them.

WebBerK

Dec 4 2009, 16:21

QUOTE (TURU @ Dec 4 2009, 10:51)

He had such a car in 2008. And what ?? ...... Nothing. Kubica was the one who achieved first PP and first win for BMW. Not Heidfeld.

Kubica won bcs Nick was following Theisen team orders.
Super Mario manipulated the pit stops of both drivers due to a yellow flag and hurt Nicks pace, then ordered Nick not to attack Kubi.

In 2007, Nick almost nailled Lewis in Canada.
He had a great pace, but another yellow flag separated him from Lewis in the race.

klover

Dec 4 2009, 16:21

QUOTE (santori @ Dec 4 2009, 15:41)

Jean-Louis Moncet says in passing (the rest of the article's about Kimi's move) that he's been told that Nick has another meeting with Mercedes on Monday.

Does he say why Kimi couldn't reach a deal with Mercedes? Isn't this the guy who wrote on his blog a while ago that Mercedes were after Kimi?

santori

Dec 4 2009, 16:33

QUOTE (klover @ Dec 4 2009, 18:21)

Does he say why Kimi couldn't reach a deal with Mercedes? Isn't this the guy who wrote on his blog a while ago that Mercedes were after Kimi?

No, the rest is just talking about Kimi's prospects: 'Many amongst you are going to miss Kimi, but you must say to yourselves that he's pursuing a beautiful career: world champion in F1 in 2007 and why not then world champion in rally?' That he's going to go quickly and crash and then be ready to win.

One

Dec 4 2009, 16:36

... Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Schumacher... they are all not anymore or not yet at the leading edge of the drivers...

I am not going to support Brawn anymore. I can't understand their strategic motivation behind the recent operational decision making.

Their operational decisions are rather passive ones: Mercedes will reduce their financial risks, their drivers will bring certainly the two cars home with financially balanced contract, the car perhaps not too extensively tested in CFD nor in Tunnel due to limited 2009 budget...

Michael is The Star for sure, but do we think that he can still win the WDC?

athlon

Dec 4 2009, 16:37

I think Schumacher and Kubica are very unlikely at the moment. We don't know Robert's contact, but I think he won't be able to exit from his Renault contract despite the management-change. So yes, Nick has a good chance. I would count with di Resta and Davidson, too, but only with a few chance. And Nick would deserve, too.

klover

Dec 4 2009, 16:41

QUOTE (santori @ Dec 4 2009, 16:33)

No, the rest is just talking about Kimi's prospects: 'Many amongst you are going to miss Kimi, but you must say to yourselves that he's pursuing a beautiful career: world champion in F1 in 2007 and why not then world champion in rally?' That he's going to go quickly and crash and then be ready to win.

Thanks for the info

CaptainJackSparrow

Dec 4 2009, 16:56

It's too early to say what will happen on the Renault situation and whether Kubica will be a free agent, give it a week.

glorius&victorius

Dec 5 2009, 13:25

man... Montoya would be a great choice.... put him on a navy seals fitness training and he would be great....
dunno if Brawn is really a fan of him though...

WACKO

Dec 5 2009, 14:10

QUOTE (glorius&victorius @ Dec 5 2009, 16:25)

man... Montoya would be a great choice.... put him on a navy seals fitness training and he would be great....
dunno if Brawn is really a fan of him though...

Yeah, he wouldn't particularly fit in Mercedes

seahawk

Dec 5 2009, 14:44

QUOTE (One @ Dec 4 2009, 17:36)

... Heidfeld, Kobayashi, Schumacher... they are all not anymore or not yet at the leading edge of the drivers...

I am not going to support Brawn anymore. I can't understand their strategic motivation behind the recent operational decision making.

Their operational decisions are rather passive ones: Mercedes will reduce their financial risks, their drivers will bring certainly the two cars home with financially balanced contract, the car perhaps not too extensively tested in CFD nor in Tunnel due to limited 2009 budget...

Michael is The Star for sure, but do we think that he can still win the WDC?

The same was said about Jenson and Rubens. We will have to see, if it is not a good idea to only hire 2 "good" drivers and invest the money saved into the car, compared to hriring a "top" driver nad having less money for the car.

FlatOverCrest

Dec 5 2009, 16:07

Just for fun and for those who fancy it....

I have just noticed the odds for winning the world championship for next year for two drivers that easily be worth a bet...in light of a "potential" seat coming available...

Kubica - 25/1
Heidfeld - 33/1

Even Webber at 16/1 is interesting...

Might be worth a Fiver of anyones money....

Misk

Dec 5 2009, 16:24

QUOTE (robracer @ Dec 4 2009, 12:52)

BMW weren't title contenders.

If having one of your drivers in the hunt for the WDC up to the penultimate race of the season isn't being a title contender I don't know what is. By that definition Vettle wasn't a title contender this year.

Misk

Dec 5 2009, 16:26

QUOTE (FlatOverCrest @ Dec 5 2009, 16:07)

Just for fun and for those who fancy it....

I have just noticed the odds for winning the world championship for next year for two drivers that easily be worth a bet...in light of a "potential" seat coming available...

Kubica - 25/1
Heidfeld - 33/1

Even Webber at 16/1 is interesting...

Might be worth a Fiver of anyones money....

I was thinking the same thing other day actually. Considering the 2nd Merc seat if more than likely going to either Heidfeld or Kubica, I see no reason why the might not be challenging for the title. With those odds its worth a punt.

V8 Fireworks

Dec 5 2009, 22:19

QUOTE (One @ Dec 4 2009, 16:36)

not too extensively tested in CFD nor in Tunnel due to limited 2009 budget...

Due to resource restriction rules, that apply to all teams

JETSOLVER

Dec 6 2009, 00:49

New to this game, but, um, er, has anyone got a sniff of the new rear diffuser that the Macca-lite this test?

as an ignorant aside...

what happens when the enforced lock of the Mc enforce ECU goes down the road nest year...?

bobqzzi

Dec 6 2009, 03:03

QUOTE (Rob @ Dec 4 2009, 13:40)

If Merc deliver a car capable of it, then Heidfeld will be a title contender.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately such a car would need to be faster than one in which Kimi or Michael would be a contender.

metz

Dec 6 2009, 13:21

QUOTE (bobqzzi @ Dec 5 2009, 22:03)

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately such a car would need to be faster than one in which Kimi or Michael would be a contender.

And this is based on a FEELING you have?
Few, if any, have been faster than Nick, in the same car.

One

Dec 6 2009, 14:02

If Michael is not available then who else? Kubica may be not thinking to move to the Mercedes sqaud, now taht David Richards got link.
In case If Michael do not perform how long will Brawn give a time for Michael? A whole season? Should not be have any serious test driver on boar, like Nick to replace Michael? Naturaly Nick will not stay in the stalling while he can race at the Sauber.

Mercedes is in a little trouble. I am not too sure the focus of discussion with Michael at this very moment... Money? or Performance?

OSX

Dec 6 2009, 22:04

Kubica will not switch teams anymore
6.12.2009

"According to the information obtained by Turun Sanomat the possible sale of Renault will not affect Kubica's driving in the team. The Polish star has a year long contract with Renault and Renault will pay his salary."

http://www.ts.fi/f1/uutiset/94023.html

r4mses

Dec 6 2009, 22:16

QUOTE (One @ Dec 6 2009, 15:02)

If Michael is not available then who else? Kubica may be not thinking to move to the Mercedes sqaud, now taht David Richards got link.
In case If Michael do not perform how long will Brawn give a time for Michael? A whole season? Should not be have any serious test driver on boar, like Nick to replace Michael? Naturaly Nick will not stay in the stalling while he can race at the Sauber.

Mercedes is in a little trouble. I am not too sure the focus of discussion with Michael at this very moment... Money? or Performance?

Brawn/Mercedes wont kick out M. Schumacher. At least not without giving a proper excuse like injury or something like that. Saying "Schumacher will be replaced by Driver X, because he's to slow" would be a milestone of bad PR nobody, especially Mercedes, can afford.

CaptainJackSparrow

Dec 6 2009, 22:59

QUOTE (OSX @ Dec 6 2009, 22:04)

Kubica will not switch teams anymore
6.12.2009

"According to the information obtained by Turun Sanomat the possible sale of Renault will not affect Kubica's driving in the team. The Polish star has a year long contract with Renault and Renault will pay his salary."

http://www.ts.fi/f1/uutiset/94023.html

Little bit more on that from:
http://grandprixinsider.wordpress.com/2009...ines/#more-6655
5.12.2009

- Contrary to what Diário AS says, Robert Kubica’s contract (and those of 99% of the drivers) with Renault starts on 1st of January. There’s no “drop-out clause”! If Renault leave F1, he most likely will be able to chose to either insist on the contract being fulfilled by whoever takes over… or drop out. In that case: Mercedes here we come;

So I think as it stands Kubica can stay at Renault or leave if he wants.

santori

Dec 7 2009, 09:43

I'd guess that it means that he can only drop out if Renault leaves, not if there's just uncertainty about its F1 future as was suggested.

Ramses1348

Dec 7 2009, 10:49

QUOTE (santori @ Dec 7 2009, 10:43)

I'd guess that it means that he can only drop out if Renault leaves, not if there's just uncertainty about its F1 future as was suggested.

Anyway, Rosberg - Heidfeld or Rosberg - Kubica is a real snorefest line up... I hope Mercedes gets Schumi

David1976

Dec 7 2009, 13:19

QUOTE (Ramses1348 @ Dec 7 2009, 10:49)

Anyway, Rosberg - Heidfeld or Rosberg - Kubica is a real snorefest line up... I hope Mercedes gets Schumi

Totally agree. They could do with a big name.

zawisza

Dec 7 2009, 14:10

QUOTE (WebBerK @ Dec 4 2009, 17:21)

Kubica won bcs Nick was following Theisen team orders.
Super Mario manipulated the pit stops of both drivers due to a yellow flag and hurt Nicks pace, then ordered Nick not to attack Kubi.

In 2007, Nick almost nailled Lewis in Canada.
He had a great pace, but another yellow flag separated him from Lewis in the race.

A couple of questions.

Who finished 2nd in qualy and who didn't make it Q3 at all ?
Who had 22 seconds advantage before SC ?
Who got 30 seconds advantage due to SC ?
Who had to regain the lost advantage in 7 laps ?
Who took podium due to having got his strategy changed after SC ?

WebBerK

Dec 7 2009, 15:27

QUOTE (zawisza @ Dec 7 2009, 12:10)

A couple of questions.

Who finished 2nd in qualy and who didn't make it Q3 at all ?
Who had 22 seconds advantage before SC ?
Who got 30 seconds advantage due to SC ?
Who had to regain the lost advantage in 7 laps ?
Who took podium due to having got his strategy changed after SC ?

5 "Who"s ?

mmmkay, Kubica drove well and was strategicaly there for a potential win, but is was tainted bcs Theisen got in the way to hold The Savage Nick.

CaptainJackSparrow

Dec 7 2009, 16:35

Haug now says change of plans and no decision till next year potentially...Right after Bernie let spill that Renault have 4 bidders and it might not be resolved this year.

Now I'm sure the Schumacher fans will theorise that he will return, but I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Merc are waiting on Kubica. Heidfeld reportedly had a meeting with Merc today, and then the below news from Haug so if you ask me they are waiting on Renault and quite prepared to wait into January (at the end of the day what's the hurry aye, gotta get the best you can)

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/sport/fo...umacher-rumours

robracer

Dec 7 2009, 16:42

QUOTE (CaptainJackSparrow @ Dec 7 2009, 16:35)

Haug now says change of plans and no decision till next year potentially...Right after Bernie let spill that Renault have 4 bidders and it might not be resolved this year.

Now I'm sure the Schumachers fans will think theorise that he will return but I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Merc are waiting on Kubica. Heidfeld reportedly had a meeting with Merc today, and then the below from Haug so if you ask me they are waiting on Renault and quite prepared to wait into January (at the end of the day what's the hurry aye, gotta get the best you can)

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/sport/fo...umacher-rumours

Absolutely spot on. Kubica is their first choice, but Merc waiting is also making Sauber wait to see if he can sign Heidfeld.

My worry is that Sauber will loose patience and sign other drivers, and then Merc get Kubica and Heidfeld is left without a drive.

alecc

Dec 7 2009, 17:11

QUOTE (robracer @ Dec 7 2009, 17:42)

My worry is that Sauber will loose patience and sign other drivers, and then Merc get Kubica and Heidfeld is left without a drive.

If (very very unlikely) it would happen, then Heidfeld would be the first choice for Renault, isn't it?

robracer

Dec 7 2009, 17:15

QUOTE (alecc @ Dec 7 2009, 17:11)

If (very very unlikely) it would happen, then Heidfeld would be the first choice for Renault, isn't it?

But I think Nick wouldn't like that very much, I think he would rather stay at Sauber or go to Mercedes.

Mercedes would be in trouble if Nick lost patience and signed for Sauber and Kubica stayed at Renault.

r4mses

Dec 7 2009, 17:33

QUOTE (robracer @ Dec 7 2009, 18:15)

But I think Nick wouldn't like that very much, I think he would rather stay at Sauber or go to Mercedes.

Mercedes would be in trouble if Nick lost patience and signed for Sauber and Kubica stayed at Renault.

Idd. I see more trouble for Mercedes than for Sauber.
Who's there for Mercedes if Kubica stays at Renault, Nick signs with Sauber and that Schumacher-comeback is nothing but a wet dream?
Kobayashi? Might go to Renault, not the mention he doesn't meet Mercedes'/Brawn's demands - they don't want to have a rookie. By that quite a few others, Di Resta for instance, drop aswell. So who's left? Trulli, Piquet, Bourdais, Grosjean? I can't imagine anyone of them at Mercedes. I doubt they will go for some retired or test driver like Wurz, de la Rosa, Davidson or Coulthard. After all we might see Sutil there... now that I've written all that, Kovalainen comes to my mind.

robracer

Dec 7 2009, 17:35

QUOTE (r4mses @ Dec 7 2009, 17:33)

Idd. I see more trouble for Mercedes than for Sauber.
Who's there for Mercedes if Kubica stays at Renault, Nick signs with Sauber and that Schumacher-comeback is nothing but a wet dream?
Kobayashi? Might go to Renault, not the mention he doesn't meet Mercedes'/Brawn's demands - they don't want to have a rookie. By that quite a few others, Di Resta for instance, drop aswell. So who's left? Trulli, Piquet, Bourdais, Grosjean? I can't imagine anyone of them at Mercedes. I doubt they will go for some retired or test driver like Wurz, de la Rosa, Davidson or Coulthard. After all we might see Sutil there... now that I've written all that, Kovalainen comes to my mind.

If Nick signs for Sauber, Robert stays at Renault and Michael doesn't drive, Merc should sign Paul di Resta. Not ideal because he is a rookie, an unknown, but I think he could do very well.

klover

Dec 7 2009, 17:56

Mercedes could sign Kimi for Spa and a few of his other favorite tracks as long as it doesn't intervene with his all-important Rally schedule. Then put a rookie for the rest of the season and Nico as the main man in the first car. Now that would be a surprise of the scale that Norbert has hinted. The other alternative as far as surprises go would be MS, of course. Silly Christmas season

apoka

Dec 7 2009, 21:37

If Nick is confident that Sauber has a good car next year, he may as well sign there instead of waiting for Mercedes. BMW was quite good in the past seasons and had a reasonable car towards the end of this season. The problem I see is that Nick feels that he needs to change the team to get from a merely good to a winning car. However, if car development at Sauber didn't suffer too much in the past months, I expect them to be very close to the top teams next year (generally all established teams will probably be close). Being number 2 at Mercedes may not be much better than being number 1 at Sauber after all.

JarnoA

Dec 7 2009, 21:46

QUOTE (apoka @ Dec 7 2009, 21:37)

If Nick is confident that Sauber has a good car next year, he may as well sign there instead of waiting for Mercedes. BMW was quite good in the past seasons and had a reasonable car towards the end of this season. The problem I see is that Nick feels that he needs to change the team to get from a merely good to a winning car. However, if car development at Sauber didn't suffer too much in the past months, I expect them to be very close to the top teams next year (generally all established teams will probably be close). Being number 2 at Mercedes may not be much better than being number 1 at Sauber after all.

Nick wouldn't be number 2 at Mercedes. Merc want a German #1, they currently have Rosberg, who competed half his career under the Finnish flag. Nick is a German, with no "but a bit......", so they have no reason to favour Nico.

Nick has beaten world champions Kimi and Villeneuve, as well as runner up Massa, and everyone's "future WDC" Kubica in the same car.

Rosberg has a couple of podiums, and err, beat a Japanese pay driver, (though not by much if you look at lap times).

Merc would give equal treatment to Nick and Nico, and I would bet anything that Nick would blow Nico away.

santori

Dec 7 2009, 22:03

I wonder what effect the new engine regulations will have on Sauber's Ferrari engine. Not that we ever knew much about the engines but there was always a feeling that Sauber received good, solid engines but not the championship-winning ones which were in the main team. If that was the case and if the new regulations mean that the new engine will be more competitive and if other other changes mean that smaller teams aren't at such a disadvantage (or at least if Nick and others are convinced of these) then Sauber could be very attractive.

Captain Tightpants

Dec 8 2009, 02:31

QUOTE (santori @ Dec 8 2009, 09:03)

I wonder what effect the new engine regulations will have on Sauber's Ferrari engine. Not that we ever knew much about the engines but there was always a feeling that Sauber received good, solid engines but not the championship-winning ones which were in the main team. If that was the case and if the new regulations mean that the new engine will be more competitive and if other other changes mean that smaller teams aren't at such a disadvantage (or at least if Nick and others are convinced of these) then Sauber could be very attractive.

Ferrari only have the one engine model to supply to customer teams, and it's the same model used by Ferrari themselves. They can't pass used or inferior engines on to another team; none of them would substitute engine quality for the ability to say they use Ferrari engines. No, Ferrari are in the habit of carefully choosing teams that will not threaten their position on-track. Sauber were only ever a points-scoring team. Toro Rosso have been perennial tail-enders; they do't score points without a massive effort or a race of atrition. And no-one expected Brawn to do anything at all this season when Ferrari and Mercedes made their engine offers.

apoka

Dec 8 2009, 07:33

QUOTE (JarnoA @ Dec 7 2009, 22:46)

Nick wouldn't be number 2 at Mercedes. Merc want a German #1, they currently have Rosberg, who competed half his career under the Finnish flag. Nick is a German, with no "but a bit......", so they have no reason to favour Nico.

The perception in Germany is a that Rosberg is German, then Monegasque, then Finnish. Most people don't know that he competed under the Finnish flag. The (perceived) link to Finland is primarily through Keke. He is a quite international, but if you would ask him whether he considers himself German or Finnish, I guess you'd get a pretty clear answer.

QUOTE

Nick has beaten world champions Kimi and Villeneuve, as well as runner up Massa, and everyone's "future WDC" Kubica in the same car.

Rosberg has a couple of podiums, and err, beat a Japanese pay driver, (though not by much if you look at lap times).

Merc would give equal treatment to Nick and Nico, and I would bet anything that Nick would blow Nico away.

No need to tell me that Heidfeld is strong. Nakajima is a pay driver, but has some talent. I don't think he went backwards in 2009, but instead Nico improved further. He is not the best team mate if you want to increase your reputation (to put it mildly).

ex Rhodie racer 2

Dec 8 2009, 08:33

QUOTE (JarnoA @ Dec 7 2009, 22:46)

Merc would give equal treatment to Nick and Nico, and I would bet anything that Nick would blow Nico away.

You´d lose your bet. It would be awfully close I think, with not more than a couple of points in it at the end of the season.

Rob

Dec 8 2009, 09:02

QUOTE (apoka @ Dec 8 2009, 07:33)

The (perceived) link to Finland is primarily through Keke.

Who was born in Sweden