Lewis has lost his overtaking talents, i mean he couldn't even overtake the Redbulls and got all out of shape trying to, how bad is that? If that was Jenson he would have eased passed those Redbulls with clinical overtakes like the way he dominated Shumi, no problem.
The only reason Lewis overtook Jenson is because he tried to crash into him and Jenson was smart enough to know Lewis is crazy so backed out.

Lucky win for Lewis, He needed MW to get on the radio to Jenson to save him. Team orders saved Lewis. Lewis needs to up his game if he is to stay in the WDC hunt, he can't keep relying on team orders and luck to get him race wins.

...

Lewis has lost his overtaking talents, i mean he couldn't even overtake the Redbulls and got all out of shape trying to, how bad is that? If that was Jenson he would have eased passed those Redbulls with clinical overtakes like the way he dominated Shumi, no problem.
The only reason Lewis overtook Jenson is because he tried to crash into him and Jenson was smart enough to know Lewis is crazy so backed out.

Lucky win for Lewis, He needed MW to get on the radio to Jenson to save him. Team orders saved Lewis. Lewis needs to up his game if he is to stay in the WDC hunt, he can't keep relying on team orders and luck to get him race wins.

...

Lewis is faster but more edgy; He's more likely to crash.

Jenson is SLIGHTLY slower but is a safer pair of hands; he's more likely to finish a race and is therefore more likely to get a greater points haul.

I stress that both of the above observations are marginal. There is no extreme difference between the two drivers. It is a subtle difference - maybe just a couple of points in it over the whole season.

1. In one of the interviews on the BEEB, JB stated that he had been saving fuel since lap 20.
2. Lewis had been attacking Webber and then Vettel, throughout the race.

It would be VERY interesting to see their relative fuel loads at the point of the overtake, but I would suggest that Jenson had slightly more and that Lewis had been told to save fuel at that point. Following the overtake and re-take by Lewis, the only sensible thing for McLaren to do would be to tell them to hold station and not take each other out.

As someone else previously stated, both cars made it back to parc-ferme, so they had some fuel left.

It was a great race and I hope that Lewis and Jenson continue their love-in, to the benefit of McLaren. I do think that Lewis was somewhat disturbed that Jenson hadn't been told to hold station, but maybe this will act as a wake-up call to both McLaren management and Lewis to be open and honest.

If Jenson did have more fuel in reserve than Lewis, then Lewis needs to learn from that and accept that in a non-refueling race, it's not all about out and out raw speed.

Nicely avoided.
It was okay to race in China, when it was wet and tyres were worn.
It wasn't okay to race in the dry in Turkey on good tyres?

If you're now saying that it wasn't about fuel then what? Team orders?
Why would they do that in Turkey but not China?

Read this on PF1
http://www.planetf1.com/features/6183631/E...ettel-Potential
Hamilton himself was more subdued than smug in the wake of his victory and was clearly somewhat miffed at being overtaken by Button at a stage of the race when he felt both drivers were under instruction to turn down the wick. The maelstrom that raged around Horner would surely have swept up Martin Whitmarsh had Hamilton failed to retrieve first place. All's well that ends well but, from the sounds of it, McLaren were guilty of a miscommunication that was a wheel's width away from resulting in a calamity.

"They asked me to save fuel but it's difficult to know how much you have to save," said Hamilton. "They set a lap time target for me and I tried to stick to that. The target was definitely a bit too slow and all of a sudden Jenson was right up on my tail."

But according to Button, "They were telling me to save fuel too but they didn't put a lap time on it - just said you have got to save a bit of fuel."

In that context, Hamilton's 'confusion' is eminently understandable and Red Bull will not have been the only team undergoing a tense debrief on Sunday.

So Jenson or Lewis in Canada as i think its going to be between these two for the win.

Explain your reasons

Well there two caught in the net in ten posts, Jeag. I think this should be quite a bumper catch.

In a way it's a relief that it was such a specific cockup. And that should mean Lewis and Jenson can stay friends.

As far as I can see it's where the team message got passed to each engineer that the problem started. Jakob relayed only part of it to Jense, while Andy relayed all of it to Lewis.

And with 7 laps after the RB crash being done 1s below the target, Jenson tracking close behind Lewis, it looks like Lewis was resisting Andy's instructions because he could see what would happen, and then finally on the 8th lap he gave way to Andy's insistence and was immediately passed.

There have been several radio messages from Andy that I haven't quite liked the tone of, too authoritarian. The "Be Careful" on the last lap of China for example. As though he wouldn't and needed to be told. And this race ended with Lewis and Andy both issuing slightly bossy messages to each other. Not to mention Lewis' blow-up in Oz and the bad weather message in China that wasn't really a reply to Lewis' question. I'd like so see some more trust and warmth in that relationship.

There was also that little save brakes thing at Monaco.

There have been several radio messages from Andy that I haven't quite liked the tone of, too authoritarian.

In a way it's a relief that it was such a specific cockup. And that should mean Lewis and Jenson can stay friends.

As far as I can see it's where the team message got passed to each engineer that the problem started. Jakob relayed only part of it to Jense, while Andy relayed all of it to Lewis.

And with 7 laps after the RB crash being done 1s below the target, Jenson tracking close behind Lewis, it looks like Lewis was resisting Andy's instructions because he could see what would happen, and then finally on the 8th lap he gave way to Andy's insistence and was immediately passed.

There have been several radio messages from Andy that I haven't quite liked the tone of, too authoritarian. The "Be Careful" on the last lap of China for example. As though he wouldn't and needed to be told. And this race ended with Lewis and Andy both issuing slightly bossy messages to each other. Not to mention Lewis' blow-up in Oz and the bad weather message in China that wasn't really a reply to Lewis' question. I'd like so see some more trust and warmth in that relationship.

Didnt they tell Lewis to be careful?

It [the Vettel / Webber thing] won't happen with me and Jenson. We're both World Champions, we're both professionals, and we both have a huge amount of respect for each other.

We want to finish the race, we do both want to win, but not in an aggressive manner.

For sure you want to be ahead, so if you finish second you're not the happiest, but he is a very supportive team-mate, he is doing a solid job and I know when I win he is happy for me and vice versa.

We had a great battle out there, he wasn't aggressive, he wasn't silly, he didn't make any stupid mistakes, and that's why it was a good fight.

So I have no doubts the rest of the year will be the same."

Yep. Maybe they thought he should be careful.

Anyway...


Either he's lying or some people on here have been taking 2 and 2 and making 5974. As usual.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but for me Lewis and Jenson on the podium seemed a totally fake BFF act! All that hugging was fine but Lewis saying Jenson was the best team mate etc was over egging the pudding! On top of which they were making hay on the Redbull situation by saying how much better they were at being teammates than the Redbull duo all in attempt to distract people from their internal issues! You boys should really careful what you say, shovelling excrement can be a dangerous business cos some of it is bound to land on you!

The "tone" was always like that McLaren towards Hamilton in the radio messages, even with his earlier engineers. And I remember you were never quite satisfied with any of them, so I guess Andy is up to a near impossible task trying to please you.

I agree I think it will be a 1-2 for McLaren. Possibly Lewis, he's ace on the brakes, but I think fuel/brake wear rates will be high so Jenson might be in with a shout of a 'managed' win. I also think Ferrari will come back towards the front for this race.

In a way it's a relief that it was such a specific cockup. And that should mean Lewis and Jenson can stay friends.

As far as I can see it's where the team message got passed to each engineer that the problem started. Jakob relayed only part of it to Jense, while Andy relayed all of it to Lewis.

And with 7 laps after the RB crash being done 1s below the target, Jenson tracking close behind Lewis, it looks like Lewis was resisting Andy's instructions because he could see what would happen, and then finally on the 8th lap he gave way to Andy's insistence and was immediately passed.

There have been several radio messages from Andy that I haven't quite liked the tone of, too authoritarian. The "Be Careful" on the last lap of China for example. As though he wouldn't and needed to be told. And this race ended with Lewis and Andy both issuing slightly bossy messages to each other. Not to mention Lewis' blow-up in Oz and the bad weather message in China that wasn't really a reply to Lewis' question. I'd like so see some more trust and warmth in that relationship.

1. Was Button given a specific target lap time by the pitwall or not?

It seems to me that this crucial question remains unanswered and yet it is holds the key to understanding the frostiness between Button and Hamilton at the finish.

To explain, with the race pace in Turkey much faster than anticipated, the four frontrunners were all eating up their fuel at a much higher rate of consumption than was comfortable for the engineers on the pitwall. For that reason they were all at varying times given instructions to “save fuel”.

In the case of the Red Bull pair, this involved de-tuning Webber’s engine a few laps earlier than Vettel’s, which the team claim was behind the German’s extra speed when he made his move on lap 40. In the case of Lewis and Jenson, it involved the setting of target lap times for both men. Or at least that is what McLaren’s chief engineer Tim Goss told me in the immediate aftermath.

“They were both given identical instructions to conserve fuel,” Goss said quite categorically. “We were running quite an aggressive fuel strategy to get good pace early in the race. We gave both drivers identical target lap times. And as you can see from the evidence Jenson managed to close on Lewis.”

If their target lap times were identical, I asked, why did one catch the other? Was someone was ignoring their instructions? “You could look at the target times yourself,” Goss replied. “We instructed them over the radio to target 1:31 lap times.”

As it happens, they both ran under 1:31 pretty consistently around those crucial laps in the buld-up to their skirmish on lap 48, but Button was dipping further under, twice taking big chunks out of Hamilton. Hamilton clearly felt a bit stunned at Button’s attempt to pass him given the fact they had both been told to conserve fuel and set identical target times – which is akin to an order not to race. So it was fascinating was hearing their differing interpretation of the team’s instructions afterwards.

Hamilton: “They asked me to save fuel but it’s difficult to know how much you have to save. They set a lap time target for me and I tried to stick to that. The target was definitely a bit too slow and all of a sudden Jenson was right up on my tail.”

Button: “They were telling me to save fuel too but they didn’t put a lap time on it – just said you have got to save a bit of fuel.”

So is Button telling the truth or is he trying to dig himself out of a conflict with Hamilton by claiming the directions from the team were a bit vague? Intriguing.

I wouldn't be so sure about Lewis and Jenson remaining friends.

See article: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tomcary...ess-turkish-gp/



I am glad a journalist has pointed this out and tried to do some analysis of the situation. I don't subscribe to this pie in the sky view: "Oh, it's marvellous, it's racing, they're two competitive animals, blah blah blah".

It was evident Hamilton was not happy, there was a lot of whispering going on before the podium by Paddy Lowe, Lewis's face looked like thunder, Button leapt to defend himself despite Lewis not actually talking about him.

It boils down to one of TWO things:

Either

1. Button was lying about not being given lap times which means he is a snake in the grass, not to be trusted and tried to take advantage of an unknowing Hamilton as that was the only way he could overtake him.

or

2. There was either intentional or unintentional miscommunication.

Either one of the above is seriously bad, and it's no wonder Lewis looked so dismayed.

What should he do going forward? God knows, but he needs to do something because he will become increasingly suspicious and on edge if it's not. This word "miscommunication" is cropping up far too often in relation to Lewis and McLaren.

I was hoping that getting someone a bit younger might have led to an improvement... maybe he needs to join a new team where they will switch round all the established engineer/driver relationships and do everything else necessary to make him feel comfortable.

Oh for god sake mate.. you really questioning their friendship over Turkey? Good lord.

A similar situation occurred during the 1982 San Marino Grand Prix between Ferrari drivers Didier Pironi and Gilles Villeneuve. Team principal Mauro Forghieri told both drivers to slow down to save fuel, Villeneuve slowed down, too much to the likings of Pironi, and he overtook his team mate, who tried to regain his position for several laps, but Pironi crossed the finish line first and won the race. Villeneuve felt betrayed by Pironi, and was so upset he vowed never to speak to him again. Many still believe this led to Villeneuve's fatal accident two weeks later in Belgium. The whole case became one of Formula One's greatest mysteries, until a few years ago Forghieri told an Italian newspaper the whole thing was a misunderstanding caused by miscommunication between the team and both drivers, apparently Pironi didn't know Villeneuve was told to slow down, and Villeneuve thought Pironi had blatantly ignored team orders.

Oh for god sake mate.. you really questioning their friendship over Turkey? Good lord.

It's always a two-way road. I guess if Hamilton wouldn't like how he's talked to he would make that known inside the team - it's not that he's shy or something.

Of course a team change would be... interesting. It's with any driver, but especially with Hamilton who knows the people he works for longer than perhaps any driver on the grid. McLaren is his racing family, and it's a banal truth that at some point a kid must move away from his family to truly assess his potential - for good and bad.

What friendship?... they drive for the same team. They are not actually mates, its just for he cameras.

What friendship?... they drive for the same team. They are not actually mates, its just for he cameras.

Oh for god sake mate.. you really questioning their friendship over Turkey? Good lord.

Did you actually read my post and the Telegraph article? Try and comment on its content. Something similar happened with Villeneuve and Pironi according to this article http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=370841

I think you read to many tabloid articles, that's what i think.

I wouldn't be so sure about Lewis and Jenson remaining friends.

See article: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tomcary...ess-turkish-gp/

So you're calling Lewis a liar then.
Okay.

By the way that's the same paper you said couldn't be trusted only a couple of weeks ago. What happened to your 'Oh, the British Press just make stuff up, you can't believe that rubbish'?

I wouldn't be so sure about Lewis and Jenson remaining friends.

See article: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tomcary...ess-turkish-gp/

You seemed to be defending the non-tabloid British press a couple of weeks ago. Tell me what you think of the article.

So you consider the Daily Telegraph directly quoting Tim Goss and motorsport.com as tabloid? Hmmmm.

It would be great if you actually commented on the content of the article/post, but it seems pretty conclusive doesn't it, so there isn't much you can say.

I think the whole Lewis V Jenson war is a complete non-starter. i don't think I've seen two drivers at this level working as well together. The Turkey incident was simply because Lewis was told to save fuel and hit a specific lap time. Jenson was told to save a bit of fuel but not given a specific time so Lewis quite naturally fell back into his clutches. A good battle was had between the two and Lewis managed to get back out in front. I'm not surprised to see Hamilton a little bit miffed after the race because you'd immediately think, 'have they given me a target lap time slower than button'? If so, why? When he spoke on the Forum after he'd probably spoken to the engineers he seemed genuinely relaxed, happy and pleased to have Button as his team mate. I think he said that he's never had a team mate he's enjoyed working with as much as he does Jenson. Come the end of the season I think people may find that it's factors out of their control that will decide who is world champion - they're not far apart in terms of talent - maybe Lewis has the advantage in that he can force a result but this comes with it's own dangers - ie tyre damage, possibility of an accident. Truth is, all it would take is an engine blown here, a gearbox problem there and either one could find themselves losing out to the other. Jenson has already had a problem in monaco, hamilton in barcelona. I'm sure there'll be more to come too.

No chance, LH rules on stop start circuits. Only complete brake failure or more magic from RK can stop an LH victory in Canada.... JB will have to wait for the next high speed circuit Silverstone to get back on LH's pace.

I wouldn't be so sure about Lewis and Jenson remaining friends.

See article: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tomcary...ess-turkish-gp/



I am glad a journalist has pointed this out and tried to do some analysis of the situation. I don't subscribe to this pie in the sky view: "Oh, it's marvellous, it's racing, they're two competitive animals, blah blah blah".

It was evident Hamilton was not happy, there was a lot of whispering going on before the podium by Paddy Lowe, Lewis's face looked like thunder, Button leapt to defend himself despite Lewis not actually talking about him.

It boils down to one of TWO things:

Either

1. Button was lying about not being given lap times which means he is a snake in the grass, not to be trusted and tried to take advantage of an unknowing Hamilton as that was the only way he could overtake him.

or

2. There was either intentional or unintentional miscommunication.

Either one of the above is seriously bad, and it's no wonder Lewis looked so dismayed.

What should he do going forward? God knows, but he needs to do something because he will become increasingly suspicious and on edge if it's not. This word "miscommunication" is cropping up far too often in relation to Lewis and McLaren.

Canada, despite its longer straights, is quite comparable to Melbourne, where Button qualified ahead of Lewis in the dry, and won. I did say that Lewis would probably win but brakes with those heavy fuel loads are going to be iffy. Past performance is therefore no guide over a race distance.

Hamilton had been arrested the night before so may have been a little bit stressed, no?

I think he's trying to make a story out of it.
There are two angles that have been taken:
1. Lewis looked unhappy on the podium, therefore he's unhappy with what happened with Mclaren / Jenson.
2. Look at how much more professional the Mclaren drivers were than those wallies at Red Bull. Hoorah.

I think the first story made some sense until you heard what Hamilton and Button had to say after the race in interviews. I don't think it's likely that story would be written today (although I might be wrong). Do you really think LH is so political that he'd be speaking in such complimentary terms about JB when he's as miffed as you seem to think?

I'm not trying to have it both ways. Producing an article that fits with your conspiracies one day, and the next day saying 'You can't trust any of the Media' because they write something you don't like, doesn't really work if people remember that you've done it.

If anyone should be unhappy, it should be Button for being given the same fuel-save lap time as Lewis, despite the fact he would have had more fuel left, having conserved from lap 20.

Great excuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I suppose it depends whether you think the team should reward Lewis for pressuring the competition into crashing, or penalise him for it.

2. Look at how much more professional the Mclaren drivers were than those wallies at Red Bull. Hoorah.

I think the first story made some sense until you heard what Hamilton and Button had to say after the race in interviews. I don't think it's likely that story would be written today (although I might be wrong). Do you really think LH is so political that he'd be speaking in such complimentary terms about JB when he's as miffed as you seem to think?

Fuel was a issue but they weren't going to run out just because they might raced each other a bit.

I suppose it depends whether you think the team should reward Lewis for pressuring the competition into crashing, or penalise him for it.

4) The team will decide internally how 1-2 situations will be handled for now on and both drivers will agree.