Just because people disagree with your point of view you despair? As a moderator I would have thought a little objectivity might be beneficial.

I make a living out of reading body language and from all the signals Hamilton was giving, he was not a happy boy and the exchanges with Button, the hugging and handshakes were consilatory.

On top of that, he made reference to the fact he didn't expect Button to make a move on him. Fortunately he was quick witted enough to re pass immediately and pull a gap. I doubt he will ever allow that to happen again.

Well that completely destroys the whole Jenson was sneaky nonsense certain people have been coming up with, as you can see from the lap times both of them were saving fuel before the whole overtaking attempts, difference was Lewis decided to do a 1.33. How is that Jenson not being told to save fuel? That's just Lewis having a crap lap and almost paying for it.
What was Jenson supposed to do? He caught Lewis and got in his slipstream not because he was trying to be sneaky and get past Lewis but because Lewis was driving to slowly. Jenson had every right to have a go and if Jenson had won Lewis would have only himself to blame as he was lapping slower than he should have been.

Yes, I think for Lewis: Lesson learnt, never trust again your teammate when you think you should drive it home, or some calls that your teammate was told the same message.

Or maybe Lewis shouldn't slow down so much to let his teammate get a tow.

It was obvious Lewis was short-shifting on lap 44 from his onboards. Running 1-2 to defined lap times they are not racing, are you saying it's some kind of reliability trial with a winner and loser according to who can lap closest to 1:31?

Jense got carried away by his competitive instinct, using the vagueness in the instructions to kid himself it was OK, a bit like Lewis did in Hungary 07. Then once Whitmarsh had laid down the law more definitely after the dice he held station as the team and Lewis had been expecting.

This, too
“They set a target for me lap time-wise and I tried to stick to that. The target was definitely a bit too slow, so I was slowing down to keep that target and all of a sudden Jenson was right up my tail. There was nothing I could do. He had the slipstream on me up into turn 12. He was able to stay on the outside.

or there should be no hiodden team-orders!

That battle between Jenson and Lewis was the best of the whole season, but unfortunately it was over after some corners.
I would have loved to see them fight till the end!

That is really frustrating to watch F1 and to know that there coiuld have been some more fighting but the team officials cut this through instructions as "save fuel"!

save fuel
battles

No mate i agree with you, they were not racing at all that's obvious when they are lapping to a certain slow time, my point is just that Lewis did a very slow lap that allowed Jenson to get in tow, Jenson wasn't racing really but what was he supposed to do? Lift on the straight? For all he knew Lewis could have been having a problem or something.

the question is, would that lap be so slow if jenson wasnt attacking and overtaking him?

I think without that battle Lewis lap time would have been about a low 1:31! so it seems that lewis made a small mistake out of corner 9-10 and not that he drove extremely slow in that round!

Well I'm not pointing a finger at Jense, at all. This is how these guys are wired - give them an excuse to overtake and they'll go for it. My point is just that the team gave him that excuse, and meanwhile Lewis was not defending, but trusting in the team's messaging.

The team really should have had a proper code that gave a clear instruction to hold station, and not this vague laptime/fuel saving beating round the bush.

Button's consistency on those closing laps is mindboggling.

Ye they both lost a bit of time in that final sector there which made the lap time seem a bit slower than it maybe was, but Lewis was still going to be about a second slower than Jenson on that lap for whatever reason and it wasn't because Jenson suddenly turned up his engine stopped saving fuel and thought "Right I'm going to have a right go at Lewis and sneak past"and started going faster like many have claimed in this thread, it was because Lewis went very slowly in the middle sector.

it seems that he made a mistake in corner 9-10! Thats it! and that effected the 2nd and the 3rd sector!

You're not claiming Jense cruised down the straight at 17,500 rpm?

I think Lewis felt (too) secure and slowed down a little bit too much on this lap.
Perhaps they told him he was lapping to fast at 1.30 times, and he should slow down more.
...I was slowing down to keep that target and all of a sudden Jenson was right up my tail. ...

I'm not quite sure what you mean, i never claimed Jenson was cruising once he was close enough to be in Lewis' tow. Also, don't these engines rev to 18.000 or whatever?

There was quite a bit of drizzle from the onboard. Maybe he assumed as they were both bringing the cars home to the second 1/2 or the season and score good points, it was intelligent to ease off in the light drizzle?

For the most part Hamilton has been doing the 'dirty' work by putting massive pressure on Webber and later Vettel that led to the clash.
Meanwhile, Button was able to 'cruise' and save both his tyres and fuel.

It would have been very unfair if Button was allowed to overtake Hamilton, after Hamilton having done the 'dirty' work.

In these circumstances, team orders are valid in my opinion.

Well, did Jense make a decision to overtake, or did it happen as a byproduct of doing his prescribed laptimes?

If he just happened to cruise past Lewis because Lewis had blundered with a too-slow lap then that could be counted as Lewis' own fault, possibly.

Otherwise, if Jense was using full performance to get past, that's a different scenario.

dirty work?

that is not dirty work that is normal racing.

to drive behind a car dont cost you more fuel, it safes you some fuel because you are in the slipstream!
driving in front (as webber did) cost you more fuel!
driving alone without slipstream (from a car in front) as button did didnt save him fuel!

UNFAIR! - This is Formula One, not pass-the-parcel or musical chairs...

Lewis is about to hit serious form I reckon, Jenson will have to drive out of his skin to keep up.

Oh dear..

In case you haven't noticed by now Lewis and Jenson race in different ways, Lewis likes to be on the gear box of other cars constantly if he can be while Jenson doesn't unless absolutely necessary, Lewis' approach is much more entertaining i concede but it doesn't mean he was doing all the dirty work and deserved anything anymore than anyone else.

Though i do think Lewis deserved the win the most yesterday which kind of contradicts what i just said lol.

Lewis has been on serious form since day 1 this season, don't know what F1 you've been watching mate.

What is the problem guys, Jenson wasn't going to not take the chance of the win if Lewis slowed down too much. They had a fair fight and Lewis came out on top, Jenson attacked and had every right to attack.

So your telling me if Jenson if in the lead of a race and Lewis is just behind, they are both told to save fuel Lewis won't try and sneak a pass?

The teams have all the data so if Hamilton was told to slow to a target lap time which allowed Button to come right up on his tail then there has been a serious mistake within the McLaren communication network. The team would've known Button's speed so the fact they didn't warn Hamilton that Button could catch him up means something went seriously wrong. You can see why Hamilton would be so annoyed because they told him to slow up without warning him about Button. I assume because they told Hamilton Button was on the same target lap time.

I've seen the video from Hamilton's rear cam. He went fairly slow in T8, Jenson got a run on him. Until this point Lewis was shifting very early, quite obviously he had backed off. Lewis took a defensive line for T9-10 (compromising his exit) and started using revs way harder. Even so, Button was able to go past, briefly. From the video it's very obvious that Lewis was expecting a formation finish and wasn't expecting an attack from Jenson at all.

So if Button knew what the team plan is... very poor form from him. If he didn't... the team management should slap themselves a few times.

Ultimately Jenson did what racing drivers are supposed to do - took the fight to the leader in order to win. Doesn't matter if it was his team-mate or not - he had the shot, he took it. And it worked. That Hamilton wasn't wary of it, knowing that Button was only a second or two behind all race, indicates that he thought the radio message meant his position was secure. If Button hadn't been told to slow that's down to the team - yet again - miscommunicating intentions. Phil Prew and Latham need to take a good look at themselves in my opinion and make sure that both drivers are armed with enough information to race fairly. I can't fault Button in this.

Hamilton's recovery of the lead, having been blindsided by his team-mate, was however a superb display of positioning and racecraft against an identical car - supposedly with better tyres if you believe may people here - and a driver fully aware that they were in a man on man racing situation. That's the move he should have been putting on Webber earlier in the race.

Great display by both drivers. Shame it's gone back to the usual my driver is better than yours bullshit with one side claiming Hamilton made a mistake that he has not admitted to - and this is a driver who almost without exception comes out and admits he made a mistake and would have rightfully been proud of the recovery he put in to regain the lead - and the other claiming Button was being mercenary in a situation where team orders had established a cruise to the flag scenario.

The team put both of them in an awkward situation, and the abilities of both drivers prevented a team error (imo) turning into a divisive incident in the way the Red Bull one has gone. Button and Hamilton proved by their actions both in race and afterward that they are fully deserving of a seat in a top flight F1 team. Shame you can't say the same about RBR's pair.

Lewis
Jenson

Team comms

Martin mentioned Jenson was able to close the gap and attack because Lewis had just passed a lapped car and not because of some mistake he made.

I'm a Lewis fan but thats because i love his racing instinct. For that reason i am very happy with the pairing this season, I think its great that the two drivers can fight like they did and end up on a good note rather than a certain other team i shall not name.

I hope that this pairing lasts for many years and that their relationship remains amicable while they fight for finishes.

In that case Martin should see the video I've seen. It starts before T7, showing Button around 0.5 s behind and the closest other car is around two seconds behind Hamilton.

Jenson gained over 1 second on lap 48 over Lewis.

Im not sure if they were both in fuel saving mode either because Jenson set his fastest time of the race apparently in fuel saving mode and after Jenson passed Lewis, Lewis was doing 1:30's apparently in fuel saving mode.

The key here was that Lewis was given a target lap time. This wasn't just a "put to setting x and drive as fas as yo can". He was told to go slower. This time was a second or two down on what he was doing previously. So when Button suddenly was on his rear you can understand why Hamilton was so annoyed. He wasn't given the full picture quite clearly. His engineer failed to tell him about the threat from Button. We can only assume that Hamilton was told... or it was implied that Button was on the same strategy.. aka same target lap time.

NOw either Button disobeyed orders to slow down to 'save fuel' (which I don't think was the case) or the team mucked up again communicated to Hamilton.

Yep that's exactly the point I've already made.

Because if it had been Webber behind Lewis, his engineers would have been watching the gap like a hawk. But for some reason they just weren't concentrating, I think maybe because they made an assumption that both drivers would now just hold station.

So there are two mistakes here made by Lewis's engineers. 1 - giving Lewis such a slow lap target that Jenson could catch up, and 2 - not being on the ball to warn him that this was happening.

Just imagine Button was Webber. It would have been very different wouldn't it? I'm sure there would have been no "surprise" on Lewis's part.

The target (1:31) was not a problem. The execution (1:33) was.

Hamilton's reaction was certainly of a man fed up with it all. Have we ever seen a more sober winner in a race? Kimi always looked disinterested but Hamilton look narked, and I can fully understand why. He had to put himself and his car at risk to gain a position back that should never have been put at risk

Are you including the time lost in the overtaking and defending on that lap? It's hard to hit a 1:31 driving the wrong lines.... jeeeezzz engage brain

Agreed. I thought both drivers had an excellent race with Button showing some good pace. I do think that Lewis driving right up the Red Bull's backside helped put some pressure on that team and hopefully shuts up those idiots who keep saying he can't look after his tyres. Well he drove the majority of that race in the dirty air of the Red Bull's and still had rubber left at the end.

Let's see some 1-2 from them.

Sorry I haven't been reading this whole thread. Do you have a source for this 1:31 Hamilton lap time target?

In any case, his engineers should have been constantly watching the gap. Like I said before, just imagine it wasn't a McLaren behind, would the same thing have happened? I don't think so.

Lewis said in an interview he was set a mid-31 target.

The 1:33 was a consequence of Button attacking Hamilton's position. A small detail that some fail to comprehend. You can't put in a decent lap time driving defensive lines.

OK I see thanks.

In any case, we can forget the targets completely. Lewis's side of the garage were not on the ball, I hope he made sure they know it.


Or maybe they didn't think Jenson would try to overtake, so it wasn't important to watch the gap. I think they will have learnt from this incident.

Yes, dirty work.
Had Hamilton not pressured the RedBulls, they would probably not have crashed.

Do you know that the cars have an 'O/T' (Overtake) button, which provides higher revs.
Hamilton has been trying very hard to pass Webber and Vettel and I'm pretty sure it was detrimental to his fuel consumption.
The pace was very high until the collision.

Was it a backmarker who took his time to get out of the way?

+1

i believe this is what happened. just a complete muck up in communication again by mclaren, we've seen it a few times this year. this whole centre console gig in the garage is causing confusion instead of clarity, this seems clear.

I am still of the opinion that what Button was doing was sneaky and not in the best interest of long term relationships. He showed that he cant be relied upon.

I have come to this conclusion after listening to what Tim Goss Mclaren chief engineer had to say
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/for...icle7140782.ece

He says that both drivers were given a delta time 1:31. It seems suprising to me that Button would then try and pull such a move. Lewis slowed on the overtaking by Jenson to 1:33 because he was defending. I don't think in future he will trust Button. In China, he obeyed orders and there was not even an issue of fuel there. Yes, i want them to race each other, but racing is not sneaking on your team-mate when he thinks you are also obeying the same order as you.

The Button overtake was nothing because Hamilton was not expecting him to be there try to race him when they were not. When Lewis put his racing hat back on, well we saw who came out on top.

100%

A backmarker definitely. That took his time? I don't know. My point was they had cleared that car way earlier and it was not the reason why Button was able to attack, the reason was Hamilton backing off a lot around T8. In fact, since Button said he went back to fuel saving after the last pass at T1, I'm thinking that Button got out of fuel saving mode to mount an attack. The video shows that he closed up on Lewis really quickly after T8.

Well that very much depends on what order you both think you're obeying. A heck of a lot of assumption is made that 'Save Fuel' means hold station and lets just bring the cars home, which is not fair on Jenson.

Don't get me wrong, for the record I thought the right man won the race out of the two drivers, but I just think its way too simplistic to accuse Jenson of 'sneaking up' on his teammate. Its more likely he thought he was obeying all the orders he was given, was surprised Lewis slowed down quite as much as he did, was presented with an opportunity to overtake, so thought what the heck. Nothing wrong with that, this is motor racing after all.

I actually think they must have needed to save some fuel or else the team would have let them race. Its just unfortunate it caused the confusion it did. Luckily no harm was done. I also don't think theres anything wrong with teammates racing each other, as long as they don't take each other out. Its harder to manage drivers when you treat them equally, but its better for the team and better for us fans.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Lewis and Jenson are a great driver pairing for Maclaren. They're both driving brilliantly this year. So I really hope it doesn't all go sour.

My problem with this whole 1:31 thing is that Lewis didn't slow down to that pace. After Vettel and Webber collide on lap 39, here's Hamilton's times:

40 1:30.865
41 1:30.222
42 1:30.122
43 1:31.066
44 1:30.679
45 1:30.633
46 1:30.359
47 1:30.668
48 1:33.051* battle with Button

This is the same pace he was running behind the Red Bulls. He hadn't slowed down at all.

But Button turned up the wick a bit once the Red Bull dust settled...

40 1:31.467
41 1:30.201
42 1:29.895
43 1:30.650
44 1:30.838
45 1:30.159
46 1:30.481
47 1:30.886
48 1:31.918* Battle with Hamilton


I just don't see where Lewis slowed down. It looks to me like Jenson was just a bit quicker (a tenth or two) at this stage of the race.

Hamilton didn't really stick to a delta time of 1:31 in any lap around the lap overtake, he was usually in the mid 1:30's. The 2 laps before the overtake, Hamilton was actually quicker than Button. In the lap of the overtake, lap 48, Button drove a 1:31.918. Why did Hamilton suddenly slow down so much in lap 48, that Button caught up so easily?

It just seems a bit odd to me. I don't think Button suddenly went that much faster to try and overtake, but when Hamilton slowed down that much, Button just had to have a go really. Sneaky or not from Button's side, I think it was unnecessary slow driving from Hamilton. After he retook the lead, he continued driving mid 1:30's again. Obviously he did not need to drive that slow in lap 48. I'm not trying to blame him for it, I don't know the reason why he was going so slow, perhaps the team told him on the radio that he had to drive much slower that lap and he simply did so, we won't even find out. But I think it was really odd how he suddenly lost so much time.