It was a redeeming drive by Jense wasn't it, after what had gone before, in the previous few races. Impressive, and a great relief that he won the championship with some style.

I've never compared it with Lewis' drive the year before, which was governed entirely by the team's bonkers conservative strategy not the driving at all IMO.

Hang on.. a reasonable, vitriol free, balanced response that shows an appreciation of the qualities of both drivers without resorting to the fanboy bias... are you sure this is on the right board?

JB is a hard driver to rate, when he's on it he looks fantastic. When he's not its like a damp squib. First half of the 09 Season he was seriously on it. After Silverstone up to Brazil it was like his brother was driving the car. Similarly, in wet races this year he has done really well. You dont win just by a strategy call or Marcus Winkelhock would have won in Germany in 07! You have to back up the judgment with skill and determination. In dry races JB has been the "KovaButton" I expected.

Will the real JB please stand up...

EDIT: by the way - its not just a wet/dry race thing. Its also an every other race thing. I am convinced that the team alternates base set up to suit LH or JB from one race to the next. Watch JB suddenly be at home in the car from FP1 in next race weekend... its his turn next.

Jenson was a bit 'off colour' at Spain IMO. Lewis shined, just a shame for him the rim failure. So It's Jense 3 > 2 Lewis.

Unless and until the rim failure is shown to be somehow caused by LH the last race has to go to LH. its LH:3, JB:2.... for what that's worth.

Think the record books might disagree with you

Button: "What's the front wing at?"
Pits: "It's set 'down'... ok now it's 'up'."
Button: "Brake balance?"
Pits: "One click clockwise before the next corner."
.
.
.
Pits: "One more click clockwise on the brake balance before your reach the next corner."
Button: "Say again?"
Pits: "One more... bugger, too late. Never mind."
.
.
.
Pits: "You keep getting close to the anti-stall, you need to change down earlier. Change down... now... now... now... gas,gas,and... up... up... Next corner coming up... brake now and change down... now... now... gas... change up... You need to brake earlier for that corner."
Button: "Smedley? What are you doing on my channel?"
Pits: "Felipe? Why's your voice different?"

At the end of the day, when i heard jenson was joining macca, not once did i think oh bugger.
I support jenson, and have done as i did damon, and before him nigel.
I have confidence in his driving, and i know he can and will take the fight to ANYONE driving in the current F1 scene.
Every driver has plus points and negative points.
Why anyone ( see the start of this thread ) thought lewis would destroy jenson in every aspect of driving at every gp is beyond me.
It was always going to be close, but i just dont get why if you look at this thread that the lewis fans seem OVERLY insecure about everything, when before the season started jenson had NO CHANCE !
What changed ? the clear jenson bias in team Macca towards jenson ?
All i want is for the fan boys to at least keep it real ? is it so hard to except that there are drivers as good as lewis ? of course they might not go about it the same way, but as good, of course there are at least 5 drivers as good as lewis, and some better

Plus one.
Record books will record a dnf for one, and a points finish for the other.
Just as it should be.
With luck one day in the future, jenson will get the recognition he so rightly deserves.

I respectfully disagree

I disagree aswell. You can't separate Alonso and Hamilton but they do leave the rest behind. IMO.

Button still has the potential, but for that he simply has to show more than what he's doing now.

I certainly don't think there are 5 drivers at good as Lewis. He's just really good. Keep an eye on his racepace and you'll see what I mean.

Overtaking such notables, the likes of Nakijima, Grosjean, Buemi and a 1st time F1 racer Kobayashi, in a very good car, against that calibre driving average to mediocre cars, is nothing to write home about. Hamilton passing drivers like Petrov, Kobayashi, Alguersuari, Luizzi and drivers of that ilk, is good for the stats, but it is not a boasting point. To me those drivers are cannon fodder. Overtaking Rosberg in Melbourne on the outside of turn 8, who was driving a decent car. Now thats an overtake. Gobbling up both Red Bulls in China, now those are overtakes with a bit of merit. Overtaking drivers like Kubica this year is worth something. But guys like Grosjean and Nakijima driving sh1theaps in 09, on a track ultra conducive to overtaking? Oh pleaaase. I'm sorry, but it'll take Button to have passed better drivers than that for me to be impressed.

IMO there is no strawman position being offered. Minus the circumstances of the overtakes, the calibre was mediocre and thats being generous. Likewise I didn't place much credit on those drivers who overtook Schumacher around China, considering the stat he was in. Buttons Brazil 09 driver nothing special. It was our own press who hyped it beyond its merit. I was more impressed by his Turkey 09 win, when he just p1ssed off into the wind and romped home for the win.

Surely you have to place it in context? The WDC was on the line and contact in any of those moves would have been a disaster, he had to be clinical and brave considering the inexperience of some of those he was overtaking (witness Nakajima's crash).

I think it was a great drive in the circumstances, pulling it out when it matters most is what separates winners from the rest.

No offence, but nobody will change my mind about lewis.
I have been watching F1 long enough, if for me there was a reason to view him as the #1 driver in the sport i would do.
I dont see it.
I see flashes of briliance, but i have seen that in drivers like MS alonso, kimi, jenson ( They being the ones showing it a little more than others )
People are astounded by the amount of ovetakes lewis has made this year, but conviniently forget that he also got stuck behind people that ended up costing him points.
The list as far as iam aware so far are sutil, kubica and rosberg.
Because of the amount of ovetakes he has achived so far people are just adding to the hype that is lewis, but the people he has been stuck behind were solid top 6 cars and drivers.
Its all very well slicing through back markers-mid field temas, but as soon as he gets near the top 5 teams, he also stalled in progress.
Yes he has also made decisive moves on the top 5, as has jenson in his career.
As it stands, lewis like jenson is one of the top three drivers in F1 at tthe moment.
Those being lewis, jenson and alonso, in any order you like.
For me,the other top drivers have to many minus points that really can, and do hinder them at times.
The top three i mentioned, seem to be able to pull out the very best result possible given the car they have at the time.
But not one of them is consitently better than any other ALL the time.
They all have there moments of greatness, but they all suffer brain farts as well.
Just not as many as other drivers.
But getting back to jenson V lewis, it would be VERY hard for jenson to have the amount of overtakes lewis has simply because he has qualified higher on average, and kept his initial position better than lewis.
You only make your own drive more complicated by ending up further dowwn the field, no matter what the excuse may be.

It crackes me up, but reading that, if names were removed, that would and could describe jenson as well as lewis, its the first thing that struck me about your post.

You mention the likes of kubica, and rossberg, as good ovetakes, two he has on other trackes been stuck behind.
I would and could quot some fantastic overtakes by jenson last year, but what would be the point.

I did say "minus the circumstance of the overtakes" I do understand the context, but the calibre was mediocre. 2 of those drivers are not even in F1 anymore, due to their lack of talent, that says it all IMO.

I'm confused - a minute ago there were at least 5 other drivers as good as lewis if not better, now there are only 2...by the time of your next post will he be out on his own as number 1?!

Go on indulge me.

Ok if you want to be anal about it.

top 5 drivers

Alonso
Jenson
Lewis
Massa
Vettel.

Top 3 of the 5 in my opinion.

lewis, alonso jenson.


Happy ?

Should i bother ?
You see what you want to, as i see what i want to, nothing i write will change your mind, unless you only started watching F1 this year.
And i wouldnt insult your intelegence to try and achieve my point.
We disagree, though i choose to try and argue my point to an extent, But not to the point of becoming obsesive.

To be fair, at no point was I trying to change your mind. It's your opinion, there's nothing wrong with it.
You do focus quite a lot on Lewis his overtaking though. Frankly, that's not the reason at all why I rate him so high.
It's just pace. He has better pace than Jenson and is also able to reach it in less time.
Overtaking, surely he's good, but quantity does not necessarily mean quality.
For me it's obvious from watching live timing he's faster than Button, thereby I rate him higher. Simple as.

And thats fine as well mate

But there is so much more to it in my opinion.
A case of one HAVING to push like mad, to one not so much needing to, and all that that scenareo involves regarding when to push and when not to.

Lewis overtook Button (this year)
and Schumacher, he overtook nearly every other driver this year (except Hülkenberg, Chandock, Di Grassi, de la Rosa )
and Alonso at 1st Round ( in some Stats it doesn't count)
But if overtaking maneuvers don't count...

There's too much focus on who is overtaken. I think the actual speed difference/track/conditions gets overlooked.

Too much focus on the number of overtakes altogether if you ask me, isn't Kovy the 2nd most overtaking driver, according to the numbers?

The point is who can overtake cleanly when they need to.

And we all know from the radio who the drivers least want to see in their mirrors .

You're not being completely honest here. When Lewis has been stuck behind drivers it's after he's made numerous passes and driven through the field. After driving at the limit trying to close the distance while using up his tyres at the same time. Not to mention he's passed Vettel, Webber, Sutil, Schumacher, Massa. The only driver from the top 5 teams I don't think he's passed on the track is Rosberg.

In Melbourne and again in Malaysia, all Lewis' overtakes came after passing Jenson on the first lap. So when you say it would be very hard for Jenson to have the same amount it's not true. He had the opportunity but instead went backwards in those races. Not as you say keeping his initial position.

Forgetting the great pass in oz?! Although yellow flags may have helped!

Alonso is the only one, although that's really thanks to webber!

I kind of remember Lewis passing Rosberg now that you mention it but can't picture it. Lewis must have passed Kubica in China but I can't remember that either.

Yes...Lewis passed Rosberg round the outside in Australia... Turn 8?... dunno, but he passed him.

Of course, but there have been some great overtakings on equal conditions, to equal or faster cars
both RedBull in China
+Schumacher (2x) who had not the faster car but wasn't easy to overtake
Rosberg, Webber, Massa (2x) & Button in Australia

China : round 29 Kubica for P3
Australia : Rosberg round 26 for P3 on the outside Turn 8

Fernando Alonso's declarations on the Jenson vs Lewis topic:

"Button estaba ya considerado como un candidato al título; no creo que ninguno lo hubiese descartado antes de comenzar, pero todos hemos visto que Hamilton ha ido más rápido que él y si tiene más puntos ahora es por determinadas circunstancias desfaborables y sigo pensando que dentro de McLaren será Lewis el que pueda luchar por el campeonato"

"Button was already considered as a contender for the WDC; i don't think anybody would have discarded him already before the start, but we have all seen that Hamilton has been faster than him and if he[Jenson] has more points now it is because of certain adverse circumstances and i still think that within McLaren it will be Lewis the one to fight for the championship."

Link(spanish):
http://www.marca.com/2010/05/12/motor/form...1273678076.html

Sometimes its hard to know if you can trust some of these sources and quotes. Having said that Fernando is entitled to his opinion and his opinion is similar to that of many other people.

Ofcourse there are equal conditions for all cars at the moment of overtake, but in the wet it's always easier than in dry conditions. And most those you mention were in the wet.

And I said 'actual' speed difference. Not normal speed difference in optimal dry conditions. The Red Bull wasn't a faster car in China because it was losing multiple tenths on the McLarens. Update: You can't overtake a faster car in those circumstances.

I think what is most impressive about his overtaking record this season is the variety.

At the end of straights he's gone round the outside, up the inside and also ducked back under.
He's passed people round the outside of corners (including that pass on rosberg in oz where you just don't overtake, was the other one on buemi in malaysia?)
He's followed others past people and then immediately overtaken the guy he followed too
He's capitalised on a squabble between 2 other cars and passed them both at once
He's weaved to make a move stick...

Ok scrap the last one!

Well, it's not rocket science.

Well, with more passes, there's more chance on variety, ofcourse.

..your straw man remains intact. Phew.

You read the words of my post but not the point I made.

It's similar to mine.

It might also work the other way around with creativity leading to more passes!

Whatever else happened in 2007 and regardless of what they feel about each personally I think alonso and hamilton emerged from that year with a profound respect for the abilities of the other.

that Alonso he is the master at the head games. here he is pitting Lewis "the faster" against Jenson "the fortunate points leader" and then he throws in the team support politics. brilliant. and who would be one of the main beneficiaries of all this tension and mistrust?? well Alonso of course.

You really are trying very very hard now

Thanks. I remember the Rosberg pass now. So like robefc said the only one left is Alonso. Webber spoiled his first attempt but i'm sure he'll get another.

In any case, no one can say Lewis has only been passing backmarkers because it's simply false.

Don't expect others to do for you, what you will not do for them.


This is a discussion board. We're not here to convince or be convinced by others, our views. We're here to talk about them, and that's how it should remain. If opinions should change, it should be as a consequence. It shouldn't be an objective.

Schumacher is a clever driver, says Button:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8678940.stm

Schumacher vs the Mclarens again in his third decade

Mika
DC
Kimi
Montoya
Hamilton
Button

So you think the likes of Ross Brawn, Frank Williams and Emerson Fittipaldi are also sheep to the British media then. Ok.

What about Senna and Berger?