Fortunately, Lewis wasn't racing the 2003 Ferrari in 2008.

Take it you only watched the first half of the 2009 season then or did you not notice the RB5's speed at all.
I beleive there was a discussion thread on which was the fastest car and the poll suggested that the RB5 just pipped it as the fastest car of 2009, if that's even just a little bit accurate then it dosen't sound to much of an easy wdc to win. I certainly wouldn't compare the Brawn dominance of 2009 to the Ferrari of 2002.

To be fair the Brawn was a country mile ahead of the pack for the first half of the season. Lewis never had an advantage period like that for his WDC

As much as I rate Lewis being better lewis (to me it's undeniable), one thing Lewis has had in all three seasons is a really, really slippery car in a straight line. Even last year, the car was super quick ina straight line and that makes being aggressive a whole lot easier.

i think you find brawns advantage was gone after the 4th race then it came down to which driver could make the best use and circumstances. Shovlin said that they knew by the 4th race the rest had caught up and only jensons race craft and speed led them to win 6 in 7 races.

Well I don't think it was faster in a straight line than the Ferraris in 07/8 or the Brawn in 09.

And it had no traction at all for the first half of 08.

I think the thing Lewis does need to be aggressive is a car that changes direction quickly, and he dials that in with his setups.

In 2002, Barichello managed 4 wins despite team orders. In 2009, he managed 2 with no team orders.

In 2003, Schumacher won 6 races, Barichello won 2.

In 2009, the difference at the first race in quali between P1 and P8 was 0.4 seconds (in the fast low fuel Q2). In 2002, the difference was 2 seconds.

In 2008, the difference at the first race in quali between P1 and P8 was 1 second (in the fast low fuel Q2).

See a bit of a difference???

Basically, the Red Bull was the fastest car over the season, but nobody had enough of a car advantage to cruise to the line.

In 2002 and 2004, Ferrari were so much faster than anyone that I could have won a race.

When you look at lap times, in 2009 it was closer than ever. Lewis managed his championship with 1 single team challenging, (and no team mate as Gazza has confirmed that Heikki said to him).

Jenson had both red bull drivers, Lewis, Kimi, not to mention his own team mate.

Lewis should have had it easy, but instead, he showed the sort of form that he did in 2007 when he lost despite being 18 ahead with 20 to go.

Jenson won with a race in hand.

The advantage in qualifying was beaten eventually, but in race trim the Brawn was quick all season, Barrichello did win in Valencia and Italy.

But that's the trick. Was the Brawn quick in race trim all year, or was Button race pace just exemplary?

Spot on

Button is poor at qualifying it's his achilles heal and to stand a chance agaisnt Lewis his qualifying must improve. But no one can deny that on race day button almost always out paced RB with faster lap times in 2009.

Although I think Lewis has the legs over Jensen it's not a done deal yet, 2010 is going to be interesting.

Why do you ask that question?

Is Jense a poor qualifier? He started his F1 career 3rd on the grid at Spa. I thought last year it was a problem getting his tyres warmed for Q, a problem he's probably not going to have this year with Mac's expertise and narrower fronts.

There were occasions were tyre temps was a problem but the team did get that sorted in the latter races but Jense was still qualifying below RB often because he screwed up his best chance of a fastest lap towards the end of the session, I could be wrong but it just seemed that when ever Jensen needed to push both himself and the car to the limit for one lap he would over step it and screw the lap up.

We must have seen different seasons then. From where I was sitting the Brawn was clearly superior only in four races. That was Australia; Malaysia; Spain and Turkey.

China Red Bull was faster (even in qualy. In the wet they blew everyone away).
Bahrain Red bull was as fast as the Brawn. Toyota was the fastest.
Monaco There was competition from McLaren and Ferrari. Lewis blew it in Q1, Kimi was traped behind Rubens during the stint (or was it 2 stints? can't remember) where the Ferrari could match the Brawn, otherwise he could give a bit of a challenge to Jenson. I remember during the post race conference Kimi saying (about Rubens) "he was so slow".
Silverstone Red Bull was what, 0.5 sec faster than anyone?

So stop saying "the Brawn was a country mile ahead of the pack for the first half of the season". That was probably true in Australia and Malaysia only.

Button is not a poor qualifyer. It seems some people only started watching the guy during the second half of 2009. The Brawn had issues warming up the tires after Turkey. Jenson suffered more than Rubens because of his smooth driving style. The team eventually solved the problem but Jenson continued having different issues, like setup. It's true he screwed it at least one time (I think it was in Valencia where he double shiffted accidentally when stepping a kerb) but that happens to anyone.

I don't know why so many people think Button will get murdered by Hamilton in qualifying. IF Button is comfortable in the car and don't have setup problems I'll be surprised if the difference between the two is more than a tenth.

"I don't know why so many people think Button will get murdered by Hamilton in qualifying"

I do.

or maybe they just sucked in qualy....you should consider that also, there is not much reason why a car should be fast in race pace and not fast in q3

I think that there's too many factors involved when driver switches a team to make any reasonable presumptions. What I mean by that is - everyone thinks Button will be slower in quali and better in race than Lewis. I don't believe anyone can be sure of that, and it may easily be other way, its all about what Button makes out of Mclaren.

Button drove really impressively in first 7 races of 2009. (anyone who claims it was all due to car probably didn't watch those races at all), and he could easily be a good challenge to Hamilton if car suits him. But also, if Mclaren doesn't suit him right, he could be beaten pretty badly. Kovalainen said for example that Mclaren wasn't very good if you drive smooth style - maybe its just an excuse, but I think there could be some truth in it.

great post. it was only jensons qualy/race pace/race craft that won him bhrain, turkey and monaco. I believe it was jensons driving and maximising his ability and car that kept them ahead of the redbull after Australia/malaysia as the car advantage after those races was gone! go and check the practice/race times it was nip and tuck there on.

about Jenson's race pace


While it suggests his strength is in race-trim rather than in qualifying, there is nothing overall that suggests Jenson has better race pace than e.g. Massa, Vettel.

Yes Jenson is able to drive consistent laptime with machine-like precision when he is in clean air leading a GP but so do all these other top drivers .....sht even Piquet was pumping out some consistent laps in Hockenheim 2008 when he led the GP.

yes Jenson's race pace was better than 37 yr old Barichello on the average, that doesnt make him race-craft king or prove he is faster than Lewis in race-trim....u'd expect nothing less than Lewis covering Rubens in race-trim also.

Now, the diff. btw a Jenson n a Massa is when the car is really fast, Massa will almost always sling that car on pole n boringly just lead the race from start to finish...while we still have questions about Jenson's qualy speed.

e.g. last season in the turkish GP, Jenson called his car a monster which it was in race trim... yet he was outpaced by Vettel in all 3 qualy sessions.

more importantly for Jenson and the coming season, his q2 pace (which will be q3 next year) was even more suspect on the general last year (just checked on wikipedia, Rubens blows him out 10 - 6 with Bahrain an absolute draw )....
I reckon the empty fuel tank in q2 creates a slight imbalance in a car set up for race-trim which on the average affects Jenson more.

Therefore Jenson will need to sort this out for the coming season...as that imbalance will even be more due to the no-refuelling rule. Add this to the expectation that the 4 top cars at the front wont have much more than tenths btw them... and you see a potential problem.

If Lewis is faster by 3 or 4 tenths, even 2 tenths in qualy, you could easily have 3 or 4 cars between Lewis n Jenson. And these cars wont be driven by Trulli, Kov type dudes ....they'll be driven by Schumi, Alonso, Webber type dudes that lets just say, really dislike being overtaken and have the ability to negate Jenson's recent impressive overtaking streak. Without refuelling, you can easily get stuck behind one of those for at the very least, enough time to make you a non-factor to your teammate in front.

Basically, Jenson might be as fast as Lewis in race-trim, but it wont matter if he doesnt sort out his qualy... furthermore, if Jenson's perceived weakness in adaptability is true, it might affect his race pace next year (difference in car handling btw the start and end of the race will be rather huge)


so the only way I see Jenson beating Lewis next season is if Mclaren build a car that can only go fast when driven extremely smoothly, e.g. tires fall off very rapidly once u push hard on any circuit.
....such a car will most likely be a lemon relative to the competition so intra team battle will be moot anyway.


Just my impressions, the analysis might be wrong on a few things.... cant wait to find out

He has been a poor qualifier throughout his career. Check the stats from his first three years against Ralf, Fisi and Trulli right through to last year against 37-year old Rubens. He has lost in qualy to practically every teammate except those who weren't F1 standard (Sato) or who were pissed off, demotivated and not that good anyway (Villeneuve). The way Fisi and Trulli annihilated him in qualy and the way Rubens managed to beat him in qualy even though he is at least five years past his best would suggest he has absolutely no chance against Lewis in this area. IMO the "excellent race pace" counter argument is skewed by the fact that at his age Rubens can no longer withstand the rigours of a full racing distance over a whole season. The fact that Hamilton was able to hang on to the back of a Brawn that was clearly several tenths quicker than the McLaren right up to the penultimate lap at Monza would suggest that the gap between he and Button will only increase during the races. I like Jenson but I suspect that before too long he'll be falling back on the "in his [Lewis'] environment" excuse that has already been prepared in advance.

I think you could make a decent case that it was Jenson that made the difference in Spain too.

yes sorry forgot that LOL!

Wrong.

Lewis was quicker due to tyres and at that stage both drivers were told by Ross to hold station and turn engines down and settled for rubens win. Jenson was using less revs (as monza is hard on engines and the curent engine limits etc), Shovlin was screaming on the radio he has more revs available but jenson said he "can handle lewis" at the pace he haswith lower revs, as there were not many places he could pass him and he had it covered. So that example my friend is not a good example.

A couple of things of Jenson and qualifying and race pace...

Calling Button a "poor qualifier" is ridiculous. I'm sure Rubens would disagree, since in their time together they finished almost exactly even head-to-head in that area. He also out-qualified JV before he dominated the driver you dismissed, Takuma Sato. Sato was actually thought of as very similar to Massa - very quick but wild. Criticism of Taku has never been about his pace, which has always been regarded as excellent.

As far as race pace goes, try to find a teammate that was able to drive away from him in a race (hint: you have to go back to Fisi at Benneton, in a year that Button was clearly just lost). Even Rubens, who most people on this board believe is better than ever, never really drove away from Jenson in a race in three years! It happened quite a few times the other way around though.

While I think the comparison with Massa has some merit, I think Button is the one with the advantage. Give Button a sorted car and he'll put it on pole and drive away, just like Massa. But Button is also a points machine whenever he has a solid car (2004, 2006, 2009). Literally every year the guy has had a good car he's compiled a ton of points. Massa doesn't have that kind of racecraft when he finds himself in the pack. Button makes the most of it almost every race.

It's amazing to me how much of a driver's reputation depend on his machinery, even though everyone on this board knows the car is king in F1. Button hasn't had top flight machinery often (getting himself in such a car is part of his job, so he has to take some blame here) and I think that's why he's regarded by some as mediocre. Lewis, by contrast, hasn't had anything but race-winning cars and hence is regarded as the second-coming of Senna.

I agree massa is fast but he definately isn't upthere with hammy, alonso, button in terms of race craft.
(out of the macca and ferrari drivers)

Button s driving style is so smooth that he really has problems with tyres temperature in qualifyings. Thats not new and doens´t make him a "poor qualifyings", besides it helps to explain his great race pace (lap by lap he was way way way faster than RB even in races where RB had better results)

I just don t agree with your comments about Lewis. Gee, the guy was Alonso´s teamate and that was his first year. That is why he got his reputation as the next Senna.
Massa, wich improved a lot (IMO) will be as fast as Alonso (tough i think Alonso is way better), but Massa would be fired from Ferrari if he faced Alonso back in 2005. Not to say in his first F1 year.

tkulla and mstar, you're wasting time and energy trying to defend Jenson

Some people on here just don't like him, and i don't know why

He's a good guy, and he doesn't come across as a dick or arrogant, yet people always try to put him, his ability and what he's achieved down, he's also never brought the sport into disrepute

I could quite easily bring up a few instances where the other champions on the grid did bring the sport into disrepute, yet they're seen as demi-gods

As a JB fan it makes me sad and angry, he's had a few years of toil and he has worked hard to achieve what he finally did last season, after the birth of my daughter JB winning the title was the proudest i've ever felt

I couldn't think of a better person or champion to represent the sport

Just because something hasnt happened yet, doesnt mean it wont happen....IMO Button hasnt had a teammate in the calibre of Hamilton.

No one knows if Rubens is better than ever, I would say Rubens peaking at 37 is bullsht ....



Button had a sorted car in 09, he had 4 poles...exact number of poles Hamilton had with his inferior mp4-24.... are you beginning to see why pple think Button will get murked in qualy with same machinery?


The mistake some Button fans are making is comparing Buttons qualy pace and race pace, and then deciding Button is a monster with his race-craft because of the discrepancy. Not considering the fact that maybe it is his qualy pace that is lacking.

there is hardly any top driver (Alonso, Schumi, Lewis, Vettel, on-form Kimi etc) in recent times who had such discrepancies btw race and qualy... those are the ones that truly put a fast car on pole and drive away....when they are fast, they are fast all weekend...even in practice!

A lot of what Jenson did last year impressed me and convinced me of his quality, but his qualifying wasnt one, it was average and average wont cut it against Lewis............that 10 - 6 loss to Barichello in Q2 doesnt bode well for him next season. He will need to step it up there for sure

The Brawn was quicker in the race, how can you not see that? Unlike the Red Bull, the Brawn was consistent, it didn't slide much at all while the Red Bull did, Vettel while it was his fault did show how quick it was to wear the tyres in Monaco.

Buttons isn't a "poor" qualifier, but he isn't a particularly great one either..... His career stats on that front are 50/50 half the times he qualified his teammates, and half the time they outqualfilied him. which is ok i guess, but Button has never been up against a Alonso/Schumacher/Hamilton type teammate in the same car. So that statistic isn't very impressive at when you think about the fact that he has never had a teammate above the Ralf Schumacher/Fisichella standard. there have been a number of occassions over the past 3 years when Barrichello has put as much 0.5s on him over a qualy lap, especially during Q2

his race pace is better in comparison, but itsnt amazing either. the fact that he has had the edge over his teammates in the departement doesn't mean much, again not having absolute top drawer teammates has helped him here, especially Ruben's at times inconsistent race pace. A lot of people used to think Webber was a quali genius, since his stats before 09 showed him to have outqualified his teammates around 80% of the time, which is a very impressive statistic. But then he went up Vettel, and now Webber doesn't look that special in qualy anymore......

you are right, an extreme example will be a football team that wins e.g. Belgian league, at a canter....then enters the Champions League and gets exposed. Button hasn't had a top class teammate yet to really confirm or discard his perceived race-craft abilities.

Nevertheless I've seen enough to agree this is a strong side of his and Ill expect him to be much closer in race-trim to Lewis than Heikki was.

I wont be surprised though if Lewis still has some 2-tenths per lap over Jenson.... we just cant really tell til the season starts

With respect to Barrichello, Jenson was as fast as Schumacher on race pace. You say rubens is 37yo, he hasn't changed a lot from 04/05 to 06/09.

Hamilton's perceived race-craft abilities only came about when paired with a slow teammate. 2 tenths? Give us a break, there's nothing at all to back that up.

lol I didnt say for sure Lewis has exactly 2 tenths over Button....I only mean i wont be so surprised if Lewis doesnt just dominate Button in qualy, but has the edge in race pace also..... who knows, could be more than 2 tenths


I guess Alonso is a slow teammate

You're forgetting the KERS factor. Ross quickly came to the conclusion that going for pole was not a good strategy, because a KERS car could negate that advantage at the start. So the Brawns were often quite heavy compared to the others.

Hamilon fans who think he is god are in for a shock when Jenson beats him. Hamilton is nothing without his number one status. We have seen it before. Hell spit the dummy. Problems at Mac next year because of him. Ferrari race to the title with two great drivers.

fair enough...still doesnt explain his q2 performances relative to Rubens though

Going fastest in q2 wins you absolutely nothing. I wouldn't judge a driver on that basis, as long as they're making it into Q3.

At the start of the season, when the car looked great, Button had that Schumacher quality of eking out a little bit extra when it mattered. Button's got the ability, but his career suggests that he needs a really good car in order to perform well. Whereas McLaren have required Hamilton to change his driving style several times already and each time he has adapted extremely well. I wouldn't bet on Button beating Hamilton next season (I wonder what the odds are?).

nope but its the more relevant stat with respect to q3 in the new season.

by the way Jenson didnt make Q3 in Singapore, Belgium and Brazil....while Rubens did

Waaay too short

2/5 LH, 7/4 JB.

I'd want 50/1 to bet on Jense. At least. Well I suppose there's injury and things to consider but otherwise...

How's that ?

He wasn't number 1 in his rookie season, anyone who honestly thinks a team like McLaren would sign a double World Champion, thought of as the best on the grid and being payed a shit load of money to be a number 2 to a rookie is off their rocker, the only person i saw spitting their dummy out was Alonso

In his second year he was with Heikki, Lewis beat him fair and square which led to the title, and i can't remember anyone spitting the dummy out

How can Lewis be nothing without number 1 status, the only season he hasn't had number 1 status he put in the greatest rookie season ever and matched and scored the same points as Alonso

Stop trying to cause trouble

He finished ahead of Rubens in Singapore though, the team held their hands up about Brazil, Belgium i'll give you was poor, that performance probably led to him getting punted by Grosjean

No need Hammy is more than capable of doing that all by himself.

Yeah, I guessed they'd be ridiculously short as they're relying on people using their hearts rather than their heads (unfortunately my nanny workplace blocks betting sites - doh!). Pity Hamilton's odds are so bad otherwise I'd be seriously tempted to put a silly amount of money on him.

I disagree. I think Button was very, very good in the single lap-format.

Having looked at all vs comparisons for team mates, it looks like they all have really short odds.

I reckon Alonso at 2/5 is the best value bet there

I really try to like Button
but I have difficulties to understand him, the way he is, his nature
for me he comes across as dick or arrogant,
but the reason therefore could be, I misinterpret him, his particular nature
I'm not from UK ,maybe his way is unfamiliar for me
and its a comprehansion question for me.

Lewis on the other hand is much more easier to understand for me
he wears his heart on his sleeve, he is open minded
he is more likeable for me.

This is only my personal preferance
it doesn't mean that Jenson is not a likable, good guy and a respectable person

I hope McLaren is going to build a decent car,
because all the competitiom between Hamilton & Button and their supportes will be less atrattractive , if it is "at the monkeys in the back" ;)

2/5 means you get two per five bet, doesn't it? Although I expect him to beat Massa I reckon it's going to be too close to put money on. But if Lewis was 4/5 (maybe even 3/5) I'd be sorely tempted to 'invest' some of my savings!

...I hope Jenson puts up a very strong fight, I just don't think he can finish ahead at the end of the season.

Yeah I think it does. But all of the in team battle bets are shocking value.

I'm more confident of Alonso beating Massa than I am of Hamilton beating Button though, hence prefering that bet to the Hamilton one.