hotstickyslick
May 8 2010, 15:05
QUOTE (tkulla @ May 8 2010, 15:36)
I think too much is made of this "raw speed" idea. Jenson has no problem saying something like "Lewis just go a bit more out of the car today" just like Vettel did today. There's no shame in that, and he said similar things last year about Rubens. All it really means is the your teammate found a setup that worked a bit better for him and found a little bit more time. This whole notion of "just being slower" is a simplification. Clearly Button and Hamilton are very closely matched. The only way it would affect a driver negatively is if he was completely happy with the setup (which almost never happens) on a track he is always quick and his teammate was a quarter second quicker. That would be a blow, but that's highly unlikely with these two.
It boils down to how the car setup is compromised. In the dry Hamilton has always seemed to have the quicker car in the race.
Dalton007
May 8 2010, 16:18
QUOTE (tkulla @ May 8 2010, 15:36)
I think too much is made of this "raw speed" idea. Jenson has no problem saying something like "Lewis just go a bit more out of the car today" just like Vettel did today. There's no shame in that, and he said similar things last year about Rubens. All it really means is the your teammate found a setup that worked a bit better for him and found a little bit more time. This whole notion of "just being slower" is a simplification. Clearly Button and Hamilton are very closely matched. The only way it would affect a driver negatively is if he was completely happy with the setup (which almost never happens) on a track he is always quick and his teammate was a quarter second quicker. That would be a blow, but that's highly unlikely with these two.
Lewis did a good job and Button wasn't far behind. I hope Button can slot into 4th on the race start otherwise he is screwed. Lewis had the upper hand this weekend and Button was playing catch-up, but this is what I expected.
Bonaventura
May 8 2010, 16:33
QUOTE (jjcale @ May 8 2010, 13:49)
Was it China, when LH made an error in Q3 and he blamed bottoming, then the team said there was no bottoming. Then last we heard it was a gust of wind.
I'm not bashing LH but JB just saved us a lot of time by manning up to to the error (even if it was not that significant)... I remember pages of post speculating about favouritism (including by me) and all sorts of other explanations for LH losing out to JB despite being faster than him at every other point over that weekend.
... So I appreciated it when JB owned up (especially after listening to RB give two different explanations for messing up Quali in the space of half an hour - none of which had anything to do with him!).
First thing Lewis said after he didn't reach Q3in Australia, he was simply not fast enough. (no other excuses)
and after Q3 in China he said he don't know the exact reason, why he was not fast enough.
Even the team didn't know what was wrong with Lewis lap after Q3 in China.
BuzzingHornet
May 8 2010, 16:57
QUOTE (PNSD @ May 8 2010, 14:23)
but on raw pace Lewis confirmed what we all knew, he is quicker
A tenth of a second... and it could have gone either way
I think its obvious that these 2 are very closely matched, its going to be hard to split them all year. Its all good as far as i'm concerned
hotstickyslick
May 8 2010, 17:05
It's not about who can post the quickest time, it's about who can finish a race higher.
@BuzzingHornet
There wasn't much of a difference between Hamilton or Kovalainen in qualifying either, but they were by no means very closely matched as F1 drivers, no way. Hamilton was in a different league to Kovalainen simply because he finished much higher than he did.
Grundle
May 8 2010, 17:11
Am I the the only one who has noticed that Lewis' pace advantage over Jenson is generally on hard tyres. On soft tyres they are quite even. Anyone know why this is?
QUOTE (Grundle @ May 8 2010, 18:11)
Am I the the only one who has noticed that Lewis' pace advantage over Jenson is generally on hard tyres. On soft tyres they are quite even. Anyone know why this is?
Right now it is a tyre heating issue. imho.
If Lewis can adjust his driving style to suit the softs more, the gap will appear on softs, too. Until that point, JB will keep him in check on the softs.
hansmann
May 8 2010, 17:40
It's a bit early into the season to have an opinion, but my impression is that Jenson is the man who can produce a win, while Lewis can just drive well and look good doing it.
The front runners are incredibly close in performance, drivers and cars both. Some driver/car combinations look great many times during the race, some are less impressive, but there are no longer the epic battles of yesteryears .
With results being within a couple 10s of a second, I don't think we need to be looking at 'raw pace' any longer, they all have that.
lewis and jenson are very very close, just like alonso was with lewis. At this level nobody is going to blow another champion into the weeds. Jenson is a serious quick driver. He has surprised me with his speed as all qualy/practice he has been as quick as lewis
fenixracing
May 8 2010, 18:39
Normal or not, Lewis did beat Jenson today.
I suspect the difference to be bigger tomorrow. Lewis has a fair shot at fighting for the win, while Button has the Ferrari's to worry about.
The start will be unbelievably crucial. A good getaway for Lewis especially can result in a win tomorrow, how quick Red Bull may have been today, if he gets track position and his strategy right, he will win it. For Jenson, he can be happy he finishes were he starts, or perhaps 4th.
QUOTE (mstar @ May 8 2010, 11:15)
lewis and jenson are very very close, just like alonso was with lewis. At this level nobody is going to blow another champion into the weeds. Jenson is a serious quick driver. He has surprised me with his speed as all qualy/practice he has been as quick as lewis
Agreed! What a positive surprise it has been too!
bourbon
May 8 2010, 20:22
QUOTE (Lights @ May 8 2010, 18:43)
Normal or not, Lewis did beat Jenson today.
I suspect the difference to be bigger tomorrow. Lewis has a fair shot at fighting for the win, while Button has the Ferrari's to worry about.
Yeah cuz Alonso in 4th won't be all over lewis...lol. I think Ferrari is mainly going to be a Lewis problem. It is a 2007 Brazil set up actually. Quickest teammates, Lewis, Alonso - if RBR had any brains they'd block Lewis and let Alonso zip ahead. Lewis, angry will go off track, lol. Kidding; a replay would be funny tho.
QUOTE (bourbon @ May 8 2010, 22:22)
Yeah cuz Alonso in 4th won't be all over lewis...lol. I think Ferrari is mainly going to be a Lewis problem. It is a 2007 Brazil set up actually. Quickest teammates, Lewis, Alonso - if RBR had any brains they'd block Lewis and let Alonso zip ahead. Lewis, angry will go off track, lol. Kidding; a replay would be funny tho.
Well I don't think he will be. I imagine the start like Hamilton slipstreaming behind Webber until T1 to overtake, and Alonso having to drive around Vettel.
The Ferrari's aren't going to be a problem for Lewis.
Seanspeed
May 8 2010, 20:25
QUOTE (hansmann @ May 8 2010, 13:40)
but my impression is that Jenson is the man who can produce a win, while Lewis can just drive well and look good doing it.
I'm 99% positive your opinion will be completely changed by the end of the season.
Lewis might not qualify better than Button by any significant amount(Heikki wasn't too far off in many quali's, too, dont forget), but Lewis is by far the more complete driver. Jenson is smart, but he's not gonna have enough instances where his intelligence is gonna give him the edge over Lewis(who's also an intelligent driver).
Johnrambo
May 8 2010, 20:31
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ May 8 2010, 20:25)
but Lewis is by far the more complete driver. Jenson is smart, but he's not gonna have enough instances where his intelligence is gonna give him the edge over Lewis(who's also an intelligent driver).
Evidence so far points to the exact opposite to what you say and it's reflected in the standings very nicely.
QUOTE (Johnrambo @ May 8 2010, 22:31)
Evidence so far points to the exact opposite to what you say and it's reflected in the standings very nicely.
His point was, Lewis is not an idiot, and the standings just reflect Button made better decisions where luck was involved. Losing out because of weather doesn't mean he's the opposite of smart.
undersquare
May 8 2010, 20:36
QUOTE (Johnrambo @ May 8 2010, 21:31)
Evidence so far points to the exact opposite to what you say and it's reflected in the standings very nicely.
Depends how much you know about F1. If you take the most superficial evidence, maybe. If you understand how the races evolved - not.
When the car is good, that is, both drivers like the setup, the times are always closely matched. That is why Jenson is so close to Lewis this weekend. The times when Lewis will widen the gap to Jenson is when the car is not setup perfect. Up to 0.4 seconds in most cases we have seen thus far. Again repeating the widely accepted fact, when the car is setup perfect, Jenson (and some drivers like Massa) can be just as fast as anybody else. A good automotive analogy to this is the Nissan GTR, anybody can drive it fast because it is well setup. The strength of drivers like Hamilton and Alonso shows when the car is difficult to drive.
Buttoneer
May 8 2010, 22:15
Good job by Lewis again today. When the chips are down, and there's dominant cars on the track, I don't think I expect to see any other driver in the press conference with the Red Bulls.
It's just like 2004.
Simon Says
May 9 2010, 07:54
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ May 8 2010, 23:15)
Good job by Lewis again today. When the chips are down, and there's dominant cars on the track, I don't think I expect to see any other driver in the press conference with the Red Bulls.
It's just like 2004.
Heavy rain is expected apparently so don't be so sure about it. Jenson is going to win by strategy like always in the wet. And maybe Lewis will drive threw the field because of a bad strategy and take 2nd. Maybe Vettel can take 3rd, but I expect a hard fight then with Alonso for that position. It's better if Jenson wins than Vettel, cause else Vettel will run away with the WDC title if nobody stops him
edit: But we'll see. I think Jenson will win if it will rain since he always gets the strategy right for some reason
If it stays dry, then it should be an easy 1-2 for Red Bull, unless Lewis has a really good agressive start down to the first corner.
QUOTE (Simon Says @ May 9 2010, 09:54)
It's better if Jenson wins than Vettel, cause else Vettel will run away with the WDC title if nobody stops him
That's why mainly, it would come in handy if Webber has a couple of good weekends and beats Vettel.
Qualifyings like yesterday can be crucial. Vettel is in a bad starting position and Hamilton will beat him today.
bourbon
May 9 2010, 08:06
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ May 8 2010, 21:25)
I'm 99% positive your opinion will be completely changed by the end of the season.
Lewis might not qualify better than Button by any significant amount(Heikki wasn't too far off in many quali's, too, dont forget), but Lewis is by far the more complete driver. Jenson is smart, but he's not gonna have enough instances where his intelligence is gonna give him the edge over Lewis(who's also an intelligent driver).
But doesn't experience count for something anymore...? Isn't that where all the top contenders, including Jenson and Lewis, have an edge over Vettel despite his talent and quickness? Of course experience doesn't always win out, but last I checked, it was a part of being a complete driver. I think that is one of Jenson's strengths over his teammate. Of course each of them has a skill set, but I'd have to say the word 'complete' would go to the guy with 10 years under his belt as compared to 4...
BuzzingHornet
May 9 2010, 08:31
I think some people are trying to prove there is a big gap between Lewis and Jenson. Its obvious now that there just isn't, they are very close in terms of speed. One will beat the other each race but as its so close i'm not sure what people are now trying to prove.
They are both very good drivers, neither of them perfect but both good enough to win a WDC.
F1Degree
May 9 2010, 08:34
QUOTE (BuzzingHornet @ May 9 2010, 08:31)
I think some people are trying to prove there is a big gap between Lewis and Jenson. Its obvious now that there just isn't, they are very close in terms of speed. One will beat the other each race but as its so close i'm not sure what people are now trying to prove.
They are both very good drivers, neither of them perfect but both good enough to win a WDC.
lets see how their race pace compares. in the only clean race of the season button was much slower than hamilon in race pace. the last 3 races have been impossible to compare their race pace. if button finishes close behind hamilton today i might be a beleiver of them being close in pace.
SparkPlug
May 9 2010, 08:35
QUOTE (BuzzingHornet @ May 9 2010, 14:01)
I think some people are trying to prove there is a big gap between Lewis and Jenson. Its obvious now that there just isn't, they are very close in terms of speed. One will beat the other each race but as its so close i'm not sure what people are now trying to prove.
They are both very good drivers, neither of them perfect but both good enough to win a WDC.
Well I would say that under normal circumstances (i.e. a dry race with no safety car or reliability woes) I would expect Hamilton to beat Button, sometimes by huge margins, and sometimes much closer. Whereas whenever we have changeable conditions, wet weather etc, I think Button will trump him because he seems to be able to make the right decisions under these kinds of conditions.
The two drivers will be close to each other if we have a few more wet races IMO.
Simon Says
May 9 2010, 08:37
QUOTE (F1Degree @ May 9 2010, 09:34)
lets see how their race pace compares. in the only clean race of the season button was much slower than hamilon in race pace. the last 3 races have been impossible to compare their race pace. if button finishes close behind hamilton today i might be a beleiver of them being close in pace.
Everybody is very close on this track except for the Red Bull's. For example, there was only 0.5 seconds between MS and Rubens. But Rubens got knocked out in Q1 already while MS had a pretty good qualfing session in Q1.
BuzzingHornet
May 9 2010, 08:38
QUOTE (F1Degree @ May 9 2010, 09:34)
lets see how their race pace compares. in the only clean race of the season button was much slower than hamilon in race pace. the last 3 races have been impossible to compare their race pace. if button finishes close behind hamilton today i might be a beleiver of them being close in pace.
I love it that people are talking about dry races as being the measure of true driving talent just because 'the untalented' Button is winning all the wet races
Didn't Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna create legends based on their wet weather skills? Its very amusing.
Buttoneer
May 9 2010, 09:21
QUOTE (Simon Says @ May 9 2010, 08:54)
Heavy rain is expected apparently so don't be so sure about it.
I meant in terms of qualifying. Somehow Hamilton seems to rise to a challenge like this.
Simon Says
May 9 2010, 09:47
QUOTE (BuzzingHornet @ May 9 2010, 09:38)
I love it that people are talking about dry races as being the measure of true driving talent just because 'the untalented' Button is winning all the wet races
Didn't Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna create legends based on their wet weather skills? Its very amusing.
Did Senna dominate in wet weather because of lucky pitstops or just by simply destroying everybody on the race track?
hansmann
May 9 2010, 10:03
QUOTE (bourbon @ May 9 2010, 08:06)
But doesn't experience count for something anymore...? Isn't that where all the top contenders, including Jenson and Lewis, have an edge over Vettel despite his talent and quickness? Of course experience doesn't always win out, but last I checked, it was a part of being a complete driver. I think that is one of Jenson's strengths over his teammate. Of course each of them has a skill set, but I'd have to say the word 'complete' would go to the guy with 10 years under his belt as compared to 4...
Good point.
It's just my humble opinion, but I think Jenson and Mark can do what both Seb and Lewis can - but not the other way around.
The oldtimers seem to have the whole skill set , the youngster not yet.
Hope that makes sense, foreign speaker here...
On a related note : I never considered Hamilton arrogant, but I really think he should wipe that sh!t-eating grin off his face, when he talks about having overtaken Schuhmacher.
Or maybe the old man will do it for him.
royalblue0
May 9 2010, 10:32
QUOTE (bourbon @ May 9 2010, 09:06)
But doesn't experience count for something anymore...? Isn't that where all the top contenders, including Jenson and Lewis, have an edge over Vettel despite his talent and quickness? Of course experience doesn't always win out, but last I checked, it was a part of being a complete driver. I think that is one of Jenson's strengths over his teammate. Of course each of them has a skill set, but I'd have to say the word 'complete' would go to the guy with 10 years under his belt as compared to 4...
I agree with that. It amuses me that people seem surprised that Jenson can make good tactical decisions, after 10 years in F1 I would be more surprised if he couldn't. Lewis imho has an astounding talent, but a little catching up in experience to do.
hotstickyslick
May 9 2010, 10:50
QUOTE (Simon Says @ May 9 2010, 10:47)
Did Senna dominate in wet weather because of lucky pitstops or just by simply destroying everybody on the race track?
Well, we know what happened in Spa 1992.
I've never given credit for tyre gambles, and I probably never will. Spa 2008 for example Boudais lost out heavily because he didn't pit for intermediates despite running well in the dry ahead of his team mate Vettel. The weather is simply an uncertainty. Gut-feelings do not equate to skill for me.
trogggy
May 9 2010, 10:50
QUOTE (bourbon @ May 9 2010, 09:06)
But doesn't experience count for something anymore...? Isn't that where all the top contenders, including Jenson and Lewis, have an edge over Vettel despite his talent and quickness?
Because Lewis has been in F1 longer than Vettel?
Johnrambo
May 9 2010, 11:07
QUOTE (undersquare @ May 8 2010, 21:36)
Depends how much you know about F1. If you take the most superficial evidence, maybe. If you understand how the races evolved - not.
Obviously you belong to the first group then.
halifaxf1fan
May 9 2010, 12:15
QUOTE (jjcale @ May 8 2010, 10:30)
Normal service has resumed.....?
you mean we may be back to a german winning the wdc again.
Jensen is poor at over-taking in comparison to lewis.
undersquare
May 9 2010, 12:45
QUOTE (Johnrambo @ May 9 2010, 12:07)
Obviously you belong to the first group then.
If you wanna make those stupid bashing posts, there's a price to pay - you tend to look like you don't know anything
halifaxf1fan
May 9 2010, 12:48
QUOTE (nawz @ May 9 2010, 09:35)
Jensen is poor at over-taking in comparison to lewis.
he will have to hope/wait for Schumachers tires to go
harrows
May 9 2010, 12:59
QUOTE (nawz @ May 9 2010, 13:35)
Jensen is poor at over-taking in comparison to lewis.
True. It's not like Hamo would ever get stuck behind a car in 6th place for so many laps. *ehm*
I've to say, Button completely annihilated Hamilton this weekend. To be 2 laps infront is just .. staggering.
Pampalini
May 9 2010, 13:44
I can't believe this- it's just not fair
Lewis is under a curse.
And here I thought it was Jenson's turn to be unlucky with that slow pitstop putting him behind Shumi... I'm gutted for Lewis, who drove a great race.
undersquare
May 9 2010, 13:48
QUOTE (tkulla @ May 9 2010, 14:46)
And here I thought it was Jenson's turn to be unlucky with that slow pitstop putting him behind Shumi... I'm gutted for Lewis, who drove a great race.
quality post
Lewis showed he was a notch above Button this race. Too bad it won't show in the points standing, yet again.
Well it's obvious the little difference Lewis had in qualy was going to put him massively ahead of Button at the end of the race. To have this with 2 laps to go is just the worst that could happen.
Button had bad luck aswell but that only cost him 6 points, Lewis lost 18 points today.
I feel very sad and dejected for Lewis, that was just heartbreaking.
Jenson was completely anonymous all race and he scores points yet Lewis comes away with nothing. Nothing more to say really.
Johnrambo
May 9 2010, 13:51
QUOTE (undersquare @ May 9 2010, 12:45)
If you wanna make those stupid bashing posts, there's a price to pay - you tend to look like you don't know anything
And the result of todays race?
Your insults look quite ridiculous now.
Grenada
May 9 2010, 13:53
QUOTE (Coral @ May 9 2010, 14:51)
I feel very sad and dejected for Lewis, that was just heartbreaking.
Jenson was completely anonymous all race and he scores points yet Lewis comes away with nothing. Nothing more to say really.
Ditto, heartbroken for Lewis.
Bonaventura
May 9 2010, 13:53
QUOTE (tkulla @ May 9 2010, 13:46)
And here I thought it was Jenson's turn to be unlucky with that slow pitstop putting him behind Shumi... I'm gutted for Lewis, who drove a great race.
I give up
Jenson has more luck
Lewis will have a though time this year. Gap in WDC enlarged
He can drive as good as he would, it won't pay off.
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