Just more fans putting Lewis on a pedestal he can never live up to. Nothing new.

I agree about this too and stand firmly in belief that there is no preferential treatment in McLaren until deserved (e.g. Hamilton's end of 2008. season). I do believe that McLaren made more mistakes with Hamilton this year, but they're just human and humans make mistakes.

But then it can't be all down to that, what made him go off in the first place? We know that Button is a sensible driver, he rarely makes mistakes and it usually takes alot to catch him out, could worn tyres simply have been the main culprit of his off? I wouldn't bet against it.

When Button was overtaken by Massa, he was on the harder more durable tyre while Hamilton was on the softer less durable one - this was during the latter stages of the race, and the hards can take alot of punishment, we know that, we saw what Hamilton did on them in Malaysia after overtaking several cars, his pace was still competitive despite that. Where Button was overtaken was at the hairpin where rear-end traction is important for a good exit and this happened despite being on the most durable compound. This is not the first time we've seen Button struggle with rear tyres though, we saw it in Hungary last year, his rears looked to be in horrible condition.

Malaysia and China are similar in that they have alot of corners which put alot of stress in the tyres load-wise, from what we've seen in Malaysia it wouldn't at all be a surprise if his treatment on the rear tyres did cause him to wear them quicker than Hamilton's, or more than he would've liked - it would fit in with what he said on the radio too. Both of his comments on the radio and in the press conference don't necessarily contradict.

The Barcelona circuit is also tough on tyres for the same reason the previous two races were, we'll see if this apparent trend continues or not.

As for now I think I've said everything I've wanted to say, it's been fun.

Good rant, but let's face it, time moves on. F1 is approaching Playstation level (error - reset - try again) for at least a decade now. Nothing we can do about that, I guess.

Fair enough. I would argue that Kova was no.2 for much longer than just the end of 2008, but I completely agree that he deserved it.

I know Mantovano volantes- story and Fangio and Clark and Rosemeyer, Rindt, Berhge von Trips, Regazzoni (the unbreakable), Jo Siffert.....
If they'd race nowadays would they be different, to the drivers nowadays?
If Lewis was born earlier and had driven in their century, would he have been worse then them?
They were the best of their time , but they had no other opportunitys to race like they did, because of the techichal options
How would they drive with the cars from today?

He doesn't make many mistakes, but in these circumstances, he's made them before. Last year he had a similar moment at the hairpin there. If his tyres would be that worn out already when he made that mistake, he did quite well putting in laps of 1:48's just a few minutes previous. Rosberg did similar times at that point, but did not have the drop-off Button had in the end. While Rosberg was the one falling in Button's trap in the first stint. Just doesn't seem logical to me that Button would wear his tyres that much more at the end of the race than others. And to call him harder on the tyres in general just doesn't make sense to me. Every compound is different as well.

In Malaysia for instance, he did pit in lap 9. This meant he had to drive 47 laps on 1 set of tyres. Which, in Melbourne, on softs, was not a big problem. Yet in Sepang, on the hards, he had trouble with them. Again, doesn't make much sense. You could say it's the track, but then I don't see how it affected other drivers. There's no logic in that. Where Vettel and Webber suddenly much harder on the tyres in China than in Malaysia? It affected them so much in China, yet in Malaysia they were dominant.

So no, I can't conclude anything at the moment. Spain can tell us quite a lot. Last year he drove beautiful there beating Barrichello with 1 pitstop less. He handled his tyres very well there, and in Monaco aswell. That's mainly why I don't get into this story. He doesn't have a history at all of being hard on the tyres. If he has a problem with them this year, it's most likely a combination of him and car, so something he has to work something out in his setup if it's proven Hamilton can manage them better.

What a story again. Pfff. They should ban 3 week breaks.

LOL...that is it in a nutshell. All the world suddenly rights itself when Hamilton beats button again and we'll have a normal race - whatever that is. And if he beats the other major competition at the same time, there will be no end to the fury that commences, lol. (That doesn't include Rosberg who can win, place or show all he wants all year and will somehow remain invisible throughout the season, lol.)

I would actually like to see some debating of what makes either driver better than the other

I'm still doubting that Jenson would have been able to make the same gains that Lewis had done in the last two wet races, had the roles been reversed. Button has had tremendous fortune, of his own making I might add. But fortune is a fickle witch and isn't something to rely on. I'm waiting to see what happens in more constant conditions during a race weekend over several races, before I make any harsh judgments.

I'm still of the opinion that Jenson can't match Lewis wheel to wheel, although he won't be an easy victim like many seem to think.

I hope he can someday convince you. He's capable of it, and in China, I think he could have pulled it of. In Melbourne, I don't think he could have 'attacked' Alonso. In Malaysia, I don't think he could have overtaken that many cars in the first few laps as Lewis did. But then again, Jenson has surprised me before.

We'll see what happens in Spain. Since a long time, qualifying will be absolutely vital again. If Lewis gets his lap together this time, and outperform Jenson with a couple of tenths as he will be doing in practice, I have no doubt he will beat him in the race as well.

Wow, that's such a unique viewpoint. Not once did you use the terms "luck" or "lucky" to denigrade Buttons achievments, nor did you call for "normal" races to see the true picture. Respect!

I think the big difference is in their heads. The age difference masks it a bit, but Lewis is fundamentally more dominant.

Remember that Heikki got the call to pull over to let Hami through in Germany that year. That race was held July 20, mid season.

People here (maybe conveniently, maybe by omission) overlook the fact that the no refuelling regs of 2010 make strategy work more into the area of tyre utilisation. Without a known refuelling lap target a driver can adapt his driving strategy on the track. If Lewis has a press on regardless style for example, while Jenson is in a "holding" position then fastest laps are irrelevant. The quicker driver on the charts isn't necessarily the quickest driver, although I would still be in the camp of Lewis for fast lap supremo. It doesn't make Jenson an inferior racer, but it may make him a smarter driver, or a luckier driver or however you want to paint the picture for your own satisfaction.

Somehow Lewis fans are often so enamoured of him that they make ridiculous claims which are derogatory to other posters and other drivers. I see little evidence of the reverse happening on this thread. The fact is Button has done a better job but Hamilton's misfortunes have provided the TV coverage with some exciting material. Surely we are the better off as fans to see two approaches to winning races, rather than everyone lapping line astern waiting for pitstops and mistakes to overtake. Some people really need to take some better pills.

^ Well I'll say it again. The combination is a very good hedge and McLaren can't lose as long as they keep their car up to the job.

Thats been nothing to do with tyre conservation at this point but better strategy, Lewis didnt have problems with tyres in the 2 races he finished in front of Jenson

A bit ironic don't you think? As you're demonstrating, this thread is chock-a-block with Hamilton bashers attaching themselves to Button.

And on the first part, if you want to claim Jenson is better with his tyres then it would be better to do it in a straughtforward way instead of this "if...for example" bs, and show us the evidence.

How you can claim that tyre utilisation has been overlooked

Eeermm... there is no claim made that Hamilton was harder on his tyres. You need to learn to read properly. The post is merely pointing out that tyre management is a factor of the races held under the new regs, so judging 'ultimate pace' (or some other such nonsensical wordplay) on the basis of fastest laps makes little sense. If a driver is in a position at the head of the field, and not under threat then it makes sense (given that tyre management is a factor) to pace their laps with that in mind. To judge that against another driver who is trying to make up places is meaningless.

It was a very reasonable post, not making any claims of one driver being better than the other - and yet here (as could be predicted, and as was pointed out in the post itself) two Hamilton fans have jumped up and down on it as if it has decried the work of their hero....

Honestly, get a grip.

You'd should probably tell Ross Brawn not to big up Lewis either:



http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp...65632&FS=F1

But what does Brawn know?

One thing between this pairing I know for sure -

I could watch a whole race from Hamilton's onboard camera and truly enjoy it.

I couldn't do it with Jenson.

For me...that's above any championship results. As a pure racing fan.

Why? Is this the same if LH were out in front? And if so, is it b/c he is turning his wheel lots?

It's because of the way he drives and the way he races, be it out in front or in traffic.

Just a personal opinion... Lewis has a far more attractive/exciting approach to racing. When I watch, I want to be entertained. Hamilton generally provides that and has since he entered F1.

Well apparently, that he's doing very well so far in the challenge he set for himself.

Grenada may be being honest how he feels, but at the end of the day, calling people "sad" because they don't like what you like is ignorant. The rest of your statement I wholehartedly agree with. For example - my all time F1 hero is Gilles!

I should just post on my own account if I were you, rather than defending other people's posts about "people here" and "Lewis fans" supposedly being unaware of the tyre management issue this year

Also I should go easy on saying somebody else can't read, when you miss the point I was making about why somebody is stating the very, very obvious.

The thing is though i've seen Lewis racing hard lapping nearly a second faster than Jenson but not having a tyre problem as such, i understand what you mean by the importance of tyre conservation but maybe you can drive too steady?

On similar tyres?
Which race did you see that in?

Edit: I don't doubt you, just wondering when you were thinking of...

Come off it, you're making it sound like every race Lewis ever drives involves a storming drive through the field!!! As fantastic as these drives are to watch, we all know that this isn't 'normal' (sorry couldn't resist using the Hamilton fans copyright there)! What about Lewis 'boring' last win in Singapore, or the one before that in Hungary? Or what about his 'boring' drive in Bahrain or his recent 'boring' drive in Japan or Abu Dhabi?

Your also making it sound like Button is boring to watch, but the 2009 Brazilain GP was only 6 races ago and every bit as storming as anything Lewis has produced in 2010 in terms of spectacle - especially when you consider the world title was riding on it. I'm not mad, so I'll happily conceed that Buttons 'storming drives' occur considerably less often than Hamiltons, and indeed Hamilton is slightly better in this area when the opportunity arrises, but I'm objecting to the inference that Hamilton has some sort of monopoly in this area.

At the end of the day, you need to have a compromised start to the race in a fast car to be in a position where you need to storm back through the field. But that's never the plan - it initially takes unfortunate circumstances to cause it - such as Kimi Raikkonens continual engine gremlins in 2005 or Lewis race strategy in 2010.

They're both in the very top echlon of F1 drivers, its not chalk and cheese.

I actually agree with that. There has been moments in 1 or 2 races so far where i thought Jenson was taking it Just to steady in some hope that him doing that would give him a tyre advantage later on in the race that never really came because the tyres have been more than durable enough to last even if he were pushing them like Lewis was.
On the other hand there have been times were this approach has helped him, most notably Oz.

Button 'best in the wet' - Villeneuve

oh dear More fuel for Button fans

Wow! That has to be the first positive comment Jacques ever made about Jenson. He used to just slag him off.

Why it's more fuel for Button fans, I don't know. I've always known Jenson is good in the wet. Whether he's the best, nobody knows and we'll never find out.

Don't agree with Jacques there...contrary to popular belief he and Jenson have been on good terms for a long while now. He's obviously just pumping JB up.

Button is among the best in wet conditions but outright best? Maybe Jacques missed Hamilton effort at Silverstone 2008. 2 or 3 others could claim that title now.

comeon son

another untruth...

Apart from the fact that their was a WDC in line which may have made things look more dramatic... Everybit? Really?

I'm tired of people n British media embellishing that race like it was some super spectacular sht ...

perhaps when compared to other Button races?

If my memory serves me right, in this 'storming charge', Button overtook a grand total of..... wait for it...3 cars on track. Which calibre of drivers n cars were this?

Grosjean, Nakajima and Kobayashi (after a couple tries).... not exactly world beaters... two considered not good enough for F1 anymore, and 3rd in his 2nd F1 race.....the rest of his positions he gained via safety car, pitstop and retirements.

You want to compare this to Hamilton pulling off around 9, 10 overtakes in China including Schumacher twice, Kubica, double overtake on Vettel and Sutil amongst others...

as a matter of fact, in this same Brazil 09 race... Ham. started 4 positions behind Jenson and finished 2 positions ahead (podium) with probably as many overtakes as Jenson including one on a Brawn car.

So even in this major "storming race" of Jenson, Lewis drove a "stormier" one ....albeit less recognized cos he wasnt fighting for the WDC then.

Everything about Jenson being a quick, experienced driver and fairly formidable opponent, I agree with and respect... but in terms of on track excitement, Lewis is easily on another echelon.

A brilliant display no doubt. But now we're into 2010 and it's getting a bit long in the tooth. We've had several rain sessions in between and Hamilton has looked mostly good, but hardly as dominant as in Silverstone 2008, others have had his measure frequently.

But not yet in the 3 wet races of 2010..

So fighting your way from 11th on the grid to 3rd in Australia, before fighting your way back to 5th place after his second pitstop, before being taken out by Webber was not a dominant display of driving? And equally, his fight from 17th after pitting in China to 4th place before the second safety car, despite pitting multiple times was not a dominant drive?

Exactly who "has his measure frequently"? Only Kubica managed to keep Hamilton behind him in the wet in Australia for the few laps that they were close enough to battle.

Button also overtook Buemi, so he overtook 4 cars.

Lewis was less recognized as he was effectively on a 1 stop strategy.

Jenson v Lewis please. It's about how these two compare. Post race discussion and 'Lewis Hamilton' have their own threads.

If you absolutely simply must carry on an off topic discussion that's already started, copy and reply to it in the right place.

I would like to know the answer as well. It certainly was not Webber or Vettel. Maybe it was Frosty the snowman?



WTF? What about the weight penalty for carrying a one stop fuel load?

I wish you'd stop attacking my OPINION as an 'untruth', it makes no sense and does you no favours.

In my opinion Buttons drive in Brazil 09 was as strorming as Lewis drive in China 10. Deal with it. My criteria isn't to simply count the number of overtakes and declare the most the winner .

Well, surprisingly fitting with the thread topic... cough... Button? Not only finished he both wet races in front of Hamilton, he also was faster in sodden Sepang qualifying.

What ARE your criteria then?

then maybe you have to make it clear its your opinion...when you make assertive statements like "but the 2009 Brazilain GP was only 6 races ago and every bit as storming as anything Lewis has produced in 2010 in terms of spectacle" that dont correlate with the reality...you should already know you will be called out on it

fact remains as far as on track excitement goes, Lewis is on another level compared to Button... you'd be hard pressed to find many people to argue otherwise.

I meant it in a way of that's why he had less airtime, he wasn't attacking as much, finished ahead by strategy. He didn't do less of a job, but he wasn't in the picture that much. Most probably I understood 'less recognized' wrong.

Undersquare, I have reread what I wrote and believe you have not just misinterpreted what I MEANT but what I WROTE.

I can understand in a sea of Hamilton bashing you or others leaping to attack of cliched repeating of tired assumptions masquerading. However my post focused on two main facts - Jenson has thus far done a better job than Lewis evidenced by the bald results, and that RULE CHANGES have brought tyre management and tactical use into a new and as yet not optimised application. We need also be aware that a driver's relative use/abuse of rubber may change in differing situations (my main thrust of 2010 regs) and different circuits. I would not personally make the bald assumption that Lewis uses his tyres or rears or whatever more than Jenson although I would expect with his recent efforts that would probably be the case.

Your attack of tyre management as yet another comment on the well used assumptive discussion on tyre conservation. While my post may have not laboured the point that we are entering new ground (well OK nothing really is new) with the current regs I am disappointed you chose to see the post as merely the attaching of Lewis hatred onto a Jenson defence. Oh well, what the hell, put your own portrayal on it but you have missed the point by being so reactive IMO.

The greater thrust by Lewis fans in downgrading Jenson's ability is on the fastest laps turned in by Lewis. I know you have been around long enough to know winning at the slowest possible speed is an age old mantra practiced by many champions. Moss is perhaps a notable exception to this group and how many GP wins translated to 0 WDCs? I am an admirer of both McLaren drivers for differing reasons.

main reason he had less airtime was simply cos the weekend was about Button winning the title and the overall WDC fight, so everything was focused on him... a number of Lewis overtakes hardly made it to live feed...only saw clips later on the internet

But you do realise that both these instances, are because Button gambles on his choice of tires and made the best of his situation? And boy, do you have blinkers on regarding Sepang. He couldn't put a good lap in at the last minute in bad conditions, but that's just the way it goes.

I'd actually like to know also....to at least try and understand where Rinehart is coming from.

How can it be anything other than an opinion?