well i agree hammy beat vettel in euro series, and vettel other then being out in front and doing fast laps hasn't really shown us any race craft has he???

Where would that be RE? In the old age home?

It is? Got anything to back that up? You know things like team quotes etc. Because from where I'm sitting Vettel is a driver in demand and no top team has rushed in to sign Sutil.

No I'm just having fun asserting things to cause friction.

I think it shows badly on Hamilton that he hasn't lead McLaren to a constructors title in his three years there too. What the bleeding heck is he playing at? He should be thrown out of the team.

Button lead his team to a WCC, especially in the second half.

its based on the euro series where Hammy beat Sutil, Vettel etc. vettel was 5th in championship, and Sutil was 2nd.

the 2006 seasion di-Resta beat Vettel (his teammate) to the champtionship

so the Vettel myth that he is as quick as hammy or BETTER as people here are saying is a bit OTT as even in his euroseries he was nothing special and wasn't a "racer" in the mould of hammy/sutil di-resta.

yep horner admitted they are building the team around vettel and the car will be built around vettel

as you see in the highlighted text, a lot of what you said was complete waffle. but next year we will see who is better. and it is highly thought of in the paddock (not forum fans) that Button is really stepping into the deep end. i dont think anybody respected F1 figure has said button isn't climbing a mountain by challenging hamilton. id rather take thier words than yours.

oh how I hate this bullshit.

you cannot compare their overtaking perfmormance unless they are sitting in the same car.

Vettel was driving the best car aero wise(no kers), while lewis was sitting in the car with the best mechanical grip and kers)

It's easy to understand that the RedBull is the fastest car in clean air, but the aero advantage dimishes greatly in dirty air.
Redbull relies on the aero, the renault engine is not as goodTHa as the mercedes, they dont have KERS and their mechanical grip is not as good as the mclaren one.

That's why vettel looks bad compared to hamilton if he's not in the lead.
simple as that, i remember vettel overtaking hamilton in brazil08 with an inferior car in the rain.
And hamilton is regarded by many people as the best raindriver.

vettel is able to overtake, it's not a problem with the correct car, im not saying the rb09 was bad, it's just not as overtaking friendly as other cars.

PP, you have the right to think and believe whatever you want.
It was only my opinion, not a indisputable fact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6W9HS6PEHg

i know, but you used the following words at the end of each sentence.

Unquestionably, irrefutable, Conclusive.

i was just proving a point that they are not indisputable like them words implied from you. and that most of your opinion is not based any fact whatsoever but your own opinion. which i think backed up with facts in that for instance, in a 'Sub-standard' car as you put it, he was beaten by his team mate both in the form of honda and brawn when the cars development stopped.

i dont mind you stating an opinion, as this is a forum, but dont expect people not to debate your fine points if your going to say things like that.

oh how I hate this bullshit

Firstly, in what position are you to say that which car is easier to overtake in? Secondly, the Red Bull was the quickest car easily without KERS. Thirdly, you speak as if only the Red Bull gets affected by dirty air, all F1 cars do.

The Red Bull had excellent mechanical grip, what makes you think that the McLaren had more mechanical grip than the Red Bull? Didn't Red Bull have the quickest car at Interlagos, a circuit with many mickey-mouse corners? They were also the quickest in sector 3 at Abu Dhabi, again with slow corners where mechanical grip is the most important.

The Renault engine wasn't that far off the Mercedes actually either after the FIA allowed them to 'catch up' with the others. The Renault is also very efficient, if not the most efficient engine.

You actually consider that a proper overtaking move? The track wasn't wet enough, Hamilton didn't have as much downforce on so his car naturally slid around more, and that ruined his tyres, Glock was driving fine on slicks until the last lap where it started raining enough, what is important though is that Kubica unlapped himself pretty easily, Hamilton on worn tyres went wide a juncao and Vettel went past almost immediately after. It's also interesting to note that Hamilton only finished a second behind Vettel in that race...

So again, what position are you in to say which car is better in the wet? Did Kovalainen in that McLaren impress like Hamilton did? Not at all. It's funny how you judge Hamilton and Vettel in different cars in the wet yet you say "you cannot compare their overtaking perfmormance unless they are sitting in the same car". What if the car 2008 car Vettel was in was superior in the rain? How would you know any better?


The caption underneath is full of fanboyism unfortunately. But yes, quite spectacular.

So you question my statement that UNQUESTIONABLY Jenson has more experience?
And you REFUTE the fact he won the championship with a race to spare while Lewis squandered a 17 point lead to throw away the title in 2007?
And you don´t think it´s CONCLUSIVE that he was able to win in an uncompetitive Honda, while Lewis has only ever won in the Mac when it was at it´s best, and couldn´t even get points when they had issues?
The only thing you proved is that you see this whole thing from a different perspective, while I base my opinion on hard cold facts. Sorry chum. nice try but not good enough.
Next.

True.

But, Webber made more succesfull overtaking moves than Vettel.

Same car.

So, will you put a 1000€ on Button beating Hamilton?

this video that was posted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6W9HS6PEHg

the start says something about guess who had the most overtakes in 2009, depsite having a poor car for half the season.

Since this is Jenson-Lewis related I think that sentence and argument is comparable to 2007 where Button had the most overtakes, and the RA107 was widely regarded as the worst car on the grid that season coupled with a poor engine down on power (just check the trap times and see the bottom 4 cars were more often than not the 2 RA106's and 2 RA107's.

My favourite part is the overtake featured at Monaco where Brundle says the car in front just let him past. Hamilton had so many impressive drives this year why use a thoroughly unimpressive clip?

I would if I hadn´t used up my last cent putting it all on Vettel for the world title.
Wager of the century that is. Almost like stealing money.

When did he say this?

you mean all your money is getting stolen

your hope is that Newey builds another beast

If the Mclaren n Ferrari cars match the Red Bulls then the smart money is on any of the Ferrari Mclaren guys...Alonso and Lewis in particular

those have been involved in proper title battles before...I dont think Vettel can outdice them all season if he doesn't have the car to take pole and run in clear air with...especially with Button and Massa around....and who knows maybe Schumie too


smart betters should wait until testing to see how the initial cars are first....and see the Merc. GP line up b4 putting any money on any driver.

Brave bet, I have to admit

However, all Hamilton bashers are not really convinced that Button will beat him, I wonder why is that ;)

Because Button is taking on Hamilton in Hamilton country.

Personally, I think it will be close, but Lewis will win.

If Lewis joined Button at Brawn/Mercedes, it would be close but Button would win.

mmm... team familiarity might be an advantage in most situations. I beleive though that both Hamilton and the team have it in their interests to do the best they can not to make that a factor. They want Button comfortable and on as equal standing as possible.

1)you missed the point of my statement, i i meant you used a lot of words that mean 100% certain. when they arnt.

2)you didnt say how he wonthe championship, you said defended a championship lead. where in fact he done no such thing as it was more of a case of RBR throwing away races in the 2nd half of the season. that isnt defending, thats rushing into a lead and having them fall over themselves, very much in a similar fashion to that of Massa and ferrari last year.

3) he got beat by his team mate in 2008 quite comfortably, and then in the second half of the championship in 2009 when the car wasnt the best he lost to his team mate. so your claim of 'Performing in a sub standard car. Conclusive.' really isnt a fact when u put them 2 together, at the very least it is not conclusive.

and what about the Mclaren in the first race in 2009? 15th to 3rd in the 2nd worst car on the grid.

heres the race positions for comparative seasons where the mclaren and the honda were about the same. 2006(honda) 2009 (mclaren) with jenson and hamiltons grid position and finish. your telling me he done well in comparison to lewis?

Lewis
http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2009/828.html

Button
http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2006/6.html

please show me where Button is better? as far as im aware in the start of the year when the car was atleast as bad as the mclaren but probably better (as he qualified quite decently at times) he went backwards in most races....

LOL. Like McLaren wanted Alonso to be on as equal standing as possible??

"We are fighting Fernando, not Kimi". Quote from Ron Dennis, head of McLaren F1 in 2007.

Aahh. Different situation, my friend. This is two Brits remember, two champions. The british way of doing things is the key publicity of Macca 2010.

It isn't about nationality. It is about personal favourites.

DC was British, but still had to play second fiddle to Mika and Kimi.

Ron made DC give up to Mika, despite being the better performer at the time.

Ron's not running the show now. He had a thing for Mika. But this signing is a really new thing and they want to invoke the gentleman racer spirit that only two brit champs can bring.... (ok i'm getting a bit dreamy now, but you know what I mean...). F1 I think is getting more nationalistic. anyway

If anything it's getting less.

we'll see how mercedes play it.

How should they play it?

every team wants the best drivers
it's not the most important thing, where they come from

this is also called trolling.

and it takes 2 drivers to win a constructors, not 1. not sure you understand how formula 1 works in this respect.

Button did not lead brawn to a constructors in the second half, if anybody did it was barrichello. more points in 2nd half of the season,

this definition of lead - to be ahead. Barrichello in the 2nd half of year (u said 2nd half) was ahead of button.

WCC is a 2 driver battle, and heikki hasn't been in the battle for 2 seasons. you cant blame hamilton for this as muych as you'd like to.

and as stated above, 2007 Hamilton led from the first race to the last in a season far more competitive than buttons this year where he went up against a 2xWDC in his prime.

if i was to pick who has had a better championship season id say lewis every time, as the competition as been far more aggresive and its much harder to win a championship when your car isnt 5tenths faster than the RBR for the first 7 races.

bring statistics with you next time.

To be pedantic, this isn't correct. It is possible for one driver to score enough points to take both championships. In 2002 MS scored 144 points, second placed team only scored 92. Admittedly RB would have taken points away from the other teams, but if a driver is dominating enough, and the points get spread enough amongst the other teams.

haha, true but the way F1 is now its too close and nobody is dominant like that, brawn had a chance to be this season but their development stopped.

but in most cases it does require a team effort to win the constructors. brawn wouldn't have without RB. so to put it all onhamiltons shoulders in a season where 1st and 2nd were so close is unrealistic.

but yes your right, it is obviously a possibility for 1 driver to dominate a year so much he wins both on his own.

Red Bull's Christian Horner revealed that the 2010 car – the RB6 – will be built around German star Sebastian Vettel. The 22-year old driver has driven the RB5 to two championship wins this season and his driving style will be the main factor after which design guru Adrian Newey will project the 2010 machinery, argued the young British manager.

As the news might be a strong indicator that Vettel has already managed to secure the No 1 position within the Red Bull drivers' lineup – ahead of veteran Mark Webber – Horner insisted that's not the case. He insisted on the fact that the 32-year old Aussie has the same driving technique as his younger teammate and things will work out great in 2010.

“The situation is that both drivers are equipped with absolutely identical material and supported equally. However with the way Sebastian drives, it is logical for a team to develop its car according to his style. And that will inevitably happen in the (2010) RB6. Fortunately Mark has a similar style, which makes the development task substantially easier for the team,” Horner was quoted as saying to Germany's Abendzeitung newspaper.

While clearing that up, Horner actually confirmed that Webber will continue to be part of the Red Bull family in 2010 also. The Australian driver is in his final year of contract with the Milton Keynes team but will likely sign an extension at the end of the season. Officially, though, the two parties are discussing a future deal.

“We have the strongest driver pairing in the field. He (Webber) is driving extremely well, but the season is only half over so we are not in negotiations yet. Both drivers are highly focused and ambitious,” added Horner, who also praised his drivers' behavior towards the media and themselves.

“In this respect I think Red Bull are better than anyone else. Just look at McLaren. That's exactly how we don't want to handle our drivers,” concluded the Red Bull boss.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/red-bull...style-8602.html

i am not knocking Vettel but i just pointing out that hammy beat his ass in lower formula (well so did sutil/di resta) and some on here saying he is the best F1 driver is a bit OTT

So why don't they build the car around Mark Webber then?

No way, he's no Heikki. He's going to do fine.

Well to match Heikki he'll have to have only 2-3 cars in between, on average.

PP you´re a hard man to have a discussion with because you skirt the issue at hand, and then argue a tangent that has nothing to do with the original question or statement.
I´ll give you an example of what I mean.
Your argument above would have a certain amount of merit if a constructors championship was decided over half a season. But as you know this is not the case. So why base your argument on something that´s totally irrelevant? The championship is decided over the WHOLE season, so it´s makes absolutely no difference who had the most points in the first half and who had the most in the second half. What is relevant is who ended the year with the most accumulated points, and therefore led his team, with the help of his team mate tagging behind, to a successful championship conclusion.
Do you get it now?

your the one who said lead them especially in the second half, im just pointing out the fault to your post, you can call it pedantic, but where am i wrong especially in my backing up with stats, you claimed second half 'especiall'y that button lead brawn to the championship, where as in race results and points gained a lesser car button struggled, can you dispute this fact? ill put it in a simple question format:

when the car wasnt the front runner *post silverstone* did jenson Button not get beat by his team mate Rubens Barrichelo? and if so does this not negate your assumption of performing in a sub-standard car?

you seem to be avoiding that little issue right there.

you claimed the use of 'cold hard facts' in that Jenson has done better in a sub-standard car than lewis. where as in fact as i just showed you in 2 comparable seasons (even though the honda is clearly better with it being capable of poles early on) lewis still had a better season instead of going backwards through the race. please show me where im wrong in correcting your assumptions?

talking about skirting the issue, u just plain skipped my arguement backed up with facts.

As we all saw Hamilton in his very first year had more raw pace than Alonso and Jenson has struggled to beat every one of his teammates. There's no comparison, Hamilton is way better and it has nothing to do with McLaren either, if Lewis had gone to Brawn he would go faster than Jenson in that car too.
You can forumise this forever and a day you wont get anywhere.

we will we will get to the start of the new season and then we will see.
Atlest that is only 93 days away

Jenson trying to beat Lewis is like a dog barking at the tide coming in.

That's what I believe right now anyway. I hope I'm wrong because to have two British drivers of Lewis's calibre (in adequate machinery) will be very exciting to watch.

Ooops, now we are making up stuff to support our argument. Where did I say that? Please quote me where I said anything of the sort.

Just for you PP. Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM...PL&index=93

dear me, your right, ive got that point mixed up with RoutariEnjinu's earlier post. my bad. my apologies.

and yes we all love monty python sketches as much as the next guy

but a lot of my points still apply, can you accept im right in that performing in a sub standard car is not jensons strong point? ive backed it up with facts.

Only if you pay me for another 5 minutes.

The same sentiment was shared when Alonso joined Mac and Kimi joined Ferrari.

This is true, and altough being a Lewis Hamilton fan I would not underestimate Button. But, I'm sure that if Lewis beats Button than we're gonna have alot of haters saying its just because he was favored by his team.

I'm sure some will, but I'll bet very few of them will be Button fans.

Well, I´m gonna say it before the season starts, and that´s because it´s the only way Lewis will beat him.
That´s why this is a win/win situation for Button and a lose/lose one for Lewis.