I suspect most British journalists will have to tread on eggshells in order not to offend either driver. Hughes' article might be nice towards Jenson, but it politely points out that he needs everything just right in order to deliver, which seems to be an admission that Button won't be able to match Hamilton over the course of a season.

Is not the same Mark Hughes who wrote this, and countless other gems since 07 (?)


Button apologist, right..

It's prudent to keep in mind that last year Button had an edge on Barrichello in the first half of the year, then lost it in the second half. Sometimes it takes a full season of racing to develop a clear understanding of the relative differences between the abilities of two fairly evenly matched teammates. In this case, I would wait at least 5 races to start drawing any hard conclusions.
We can also look back into the recent past to see examples of drivers that were beaten by their teammate the first year, only to turn it around and assert themselves in the second year of the partnership (say R.Schumacher and Montoya, Raikkonen and Massa).

It's not the end for Button yet. Though in my opinion, he has little chance. But I look forward to being proven wrong.


Cooper

True. Surely the most important criteria for an analyst is objectivity?. Anyway. I also read his big autosport analysis of the two drivers last week. His basic theory and conclusion was that over his career Jenson's moments of 'magic' prove hes capable of giving Hamilton a fight, if he can access it more consistently. The problem with that theory is that is a monumental 'if' in fact a totally implausible one if you have watched Button over the last decade. Hughes doesn't seem to realize that the ability to consistently access magic isn't some trivial issue you slap on at the end of the theory, its the most critical aspect of being a great driver and what separates them from the mere mortals.

Drivers like Hamilton deliver magic every time they sit in the car, while drivers like Button deliver it only when the planets and stars are perfectly aligned once in a blue moon. Im not sure if Hughes really believes the stuff he writes or hes simply trying to fill pages and play devils advocate, but Hamilton vs Button was a joke the moment it was announced to me, and should have been for anyone who knows anything about F1.

Go back 3 years, insert Kimi and Massa.
Ring any bells?

Some people think they know a lot more about F1 than anyone who disagrees with them.

Exactly, particularly as in the practice sessions we had no idea about the fuel loads. I cannot believe that someone as seasoned as Mark Hughes could write such twaddle. I agree with you about the British media. You can just imagine what would have been said if Button beat Hamilton. The knives would be out, sharpened, and dug in deep. With Button, they tiptoe around and make up excuses, which is actually an insult to Hamilton. Then you have websites like trash.net that twist Hamilton's interviews to bash him.

But true, only one race so far. Let's see what happens in Australia.

However, seeing the excuses from Button and the British media already, Lord knows what will happen if he is being consistenly beaten throughout the year. I reckon the accusations will start flying from Button and the British media and it will get nasty.

I find it quite amusing, that some experts, supporters etc, have the opinion,
that Jenson, if he steps up the game and works harder, he can easily close the gap between him and Lewis
But I don't believe, Lewis is on this absolute zenith and can't become better
Lewis won't sit around and wait, till Jenson catches up

He was a Hamilton fanboy and a Button apologist at the same time before this season, so what? He's British, what do you expect?

I can't be arsed to read what Mark Hughes wrote this time but isn't it pretty much his party trick to take a driver pairing and (over)analyse why what appears to be the case may not actually be the case after all?

It's so obvious, I see it now.




[EDIT]Please note that Bonaventura's text has been altered. Any opinions expressed above may or may not be true reflections of opinions held at the time. The value of shares can go up and down. [/EDIT]

That was a surprise, but Kimi was nowhere near as proven as Hamilton, he wasn't even a world champion and never proved his skills against someone like Alonso in equal cars. For the right price I would have literally bet my life that Hamilton would dominate Button in 2010.

That is exactly what he does - over analyse!

Would you have bet your life that Alonso would dominate LH in 2007?
Because I don't think anyone except Lewis and his dad expected anything different.

Yes, but I think he does have favourites, he consistently defends certain drivers (e.g. Button, Webber) even when the rivalry with their respective teammates weren't particularly interesting or attract a lot of attention.

haha
If you alter my text, please mark it.

And what would that prove? Of course it's inevitable, given the vagaries of mechanical failure, racing incidents, finding yourself hampered by a competitor at the wrong time in qualifying etc., that Button will beat Hamilton at some point; I never indicated he wouldn't. The point is, how often will he beat him on merit? I expect Jenson - who is by my reckoning, after Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and Massa, probably the fifth best driver on the grid who hasn't recently emerged from retirement - to beat Hamilton less than a handful of times on merit this season. Beating Hamilton even four times on merit this season would be no mean feat by Jenson. It would be a huge achievement that would do wonders for his standing.

What is it with this thread and rewriting history on other driver duels? Kimi retired one of the decade's most acclaimed drivers off to NASCAR. With margins that sometimes dwarfed even Hamilton's current (quite impressive) performance over the reigning WDC. Unproven? Hilarious.

He does. I think that Kubica is his outright fave. However, at least he has a go at creating room for debate by introducing some alternative "analysis" - which is a lot more than the likes of Kevin Eason do (how the hell is that bloke still in a job?)

I know, Kevin Eason is a joke. He has just taken over the Times F1 blog from Ed Gorman who was only marginally better than him.

No because I didnt know anything about Hamilton. I know a lot about Button by watching him for 10 years.



Oh dear, the 'driving style' excuses have already started guys. Sooner than I expected.

It's easy with hindsight, isn't it.

I watched Button from way back when, through his introduction at Williams, the lost years at Benneton, reneging on contracts with Williams, false bottom days at BAR, lost years again at Honda and the glory years at Brawn. The guy has always been fast, very fast in fact, but he is not Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Schumacher fast, he's just fast.

If he beats Lewis on pure pace in just one weekend this season he will go up in my estimations.

The constant press questioning of him will soon start to affect his driving because he will know that if he loses to Lewis the inevitable questions will be repeated ad nauseum.

He's in a no win situation.

That's a circular argument.

Of course he's in a no-win situation if he carries on losing to Lewis.
All you're really saying is 'I think Lewis is faster'.

So, in summary: Anybody who was already utterly convinced that Hamilton would dominate Button before the season even started, has seen one race and decided that their hunch has been proven beyond all doubt.

Facinating.

I'll give it a few more races. I think Button is naturally risk adverse, which makes him a less exciting driver in many ways, but I admire his approach all the same. Just as Prost and Senna were to be admired despite having completely different characteristics.

And I'm really looking forward to the first wet race too.

You're smarter than me, then. I actually read it. What a load of old cobblers. The highlight for me was this bit:

The reactive driver will have a wider operating range, will get more from the car over a wider range of handling traits and will be less sensitive to variations in the handling.

Assuming a similar level of basic talent, an anticipative driver - in this case, Button - will be better able to squeeze the ultimate from a well balanced car.

This is Hughes getting so cocky that he lays bare his MO for all to see. Like in every article of this sort he writes, he starts off by assuming that the drivers he's comparing - say, Piquet and Alonso, to use a hypothetical example - have a "similar level of basic talent", and then he adds all this made-up mumbo jumbo about "reactive" and "anticipative" drivers, not to mention the technical stuff about handling characteristics you can tell he barely understands, to justify why one is beating the other.

The next step is to add his own editorial opinion, which is completely unsupported by evidence, to the effect that when these handling characteristics change, the anticipative/reactive driver (it depends on which driver he's boosting as an underrated talent this week) will come into his own.

This twaddle then gets posted here by fans of drivers like Kubica and Button to justify why their guy is being beaten by their teammate: "look, Mark Hughes really rates Button/Kubica, and thinks he is only getting beaten because the handling characteristics of the car aren't in tune with his style. As soon as BMW/Brawn/McLaren change the car to his liking he'll be able to show that he's every bit as good as Hamilton or Alonso".

Folks, let's kick Hughes, Roebuck, Benson and the other F1 hacks to the curb. The most important thing we need to know when evaluating a driver is not whether he's "reactive" or "anticipative"; it is "is he quick?" if so, how quick - i.e., does he have merely decent pace like the likes of Button and Webber, or extraordinary pace like Hamilton or Alonso.

Drivers like Coulthard, Barrichello and Fisichella have spent more than one season in top teams with top cars and not so much as challenged for the championship. Why? Mark Hughes would have you believe it's because of his drivel about "reactive", "anticipative", "oversteer", "understeer", "cornering technique", etc. The reality is of course that these drivers simply weren't quick enough. Because people are stupid, Mark Hughes - who wouldn't even be regarded as a particularly insightful poster were he to spend time regularly here - is able to feed his family.

Thanks for that. The article was pretty spot on. JB lost in quali and we cant say anything about race pace as a result of him being stuck behind slower cars - but then he was 0.4 behind in each quali session so we can draw conclusions from that.

More interesting were MPH's comments on the car and the BBC vids. Hopefully those can be put on youtube so they can get even more exposure. Its nice to see the near total respect that LH seems to have for FA as a driver and for the team that provides him with his opportunity to race.

I have moved from being neutral about JB to becoming a fan since he has joined Macca... what a cool guy. Right now all I want is to see them get a more competitive car and for them to continue to get on as people.

Its clear, even to JB fans, that LH is the more talented driver so LH fans should stop rubbing their noses in it .... take a leaf from LH's book and be a bit more respectful.

I must say, I love your posts. They are so well written and make so much sense. Looking forward to more.

I really do not think we need to bleat on about Lewis and Button's driving skill, they are worlds apart.

Lewis is aggressive and faster and does not give up.

Jenson is smooth and slow and is prepared to some what give up and wait paitently.

It is clear cut and the results will speak for themselves, sometimes Hamilton's style would work for him, sometimes they will work for Button, but it is clear who would be ahead of who, and I guess button is pretty much going to have to rely on things going wrong for the one upfront to make mistakes for success.

Going by what we witness in Buttons last 11-12 races, it is clear he is the tortoise and not the hare, but he will be about to pick up scappy points here and there.

+1

...unlike you. Agree all we need is to know whether driver this or that is quick or not. Knowing much more can hurt and besides all this ... knowledge is so boooring.

You're distorting my meaning. Knowledge itself is good. What is bad - and that which I characterized as "stupid" - is the tendency for people to accept as profound and indiscriminately parrot in preference to genuine knowledge any mass of intricate verbiage, such as the nonsense about "anticipative" and "reactive" drivers I was critiquing, that has been validated by some authority figure - in this case Hughes.

This thread is becoming a bore. Before the season started, the Jenson fanboys were trying to rub it in that Jenson will dominate Lewis because he is smoother and easier on the tyres. The Lewis fanboys tried to defend that. Now that Lewis has dominated Jenson in the first race, the Lewis fanboys are trying to get some of their own back by rubbing it in and the Jenson fanboys are now going on the defensive. Too wrongs don't make a right.

It's fair enough to discuss reasonable opinions on who will come out on top and why, but stooping to insults is sad. I think many of you should learn from jjcale's insightful post. This is kind of attitude I admire.

How does this simplistic ranking logic compute scenarios where a driver has had distinct upper hand over his teammate one season, then the form guide has turned on its head the next (same teammate)? According to your higher understanding, drivers are quicker or not, so what explains this change, since you completely rule out the characteristics of the car...

I really doubt anyone except Timba has ever said anything like that. For the rest you're right, it kinda got out of hand.

The only problem with Jenson is when the car isn't pretty much perfect then he always struggles, he always has done and always will. Unless Mclaren set up his car which he is really happy with then i don't see him winning any races soon. I don't think Lewis is bothered too much about the rear of the Mclaren not being as solid as the Red Bull and Ferrari but he has said that they need more downforce to catch them.

When it comes to Qualifying i just can't see Jenson beating Lewis or being on the first 2 rows until they give him a car which is perfect for him, We all know how Lewis likes the car twitching lets say and he thrashes it all over the show in Quali.

I hope to see a better performance from Jenson in Australia and hopefully he can be a contender for the podium with some luck whereas i see Lewis possibly challenging for a win.

I like both drivers.

NO! you must chose!

I don't like LH at all, but he is maybe one the best drivers out there. I hate his attitude, disrespect towards others, smugness, he is the total douche package and all that close relationship with Ron Dennis, tough pill to swallow, so I'd love Jenson Button, one of the nicest guys on the paddock, to prove me wrong and beat Lewis. So here's cheering for JB! Hope he forget about tire saving and just go for broke the whole race next time.

You spend much time in the F1 paddock?

Jenson isn't as good as Lewis on the race track but he is a better actor

Let's wait a few more races guys. Jenson was terrible this race, but let's wait and see if Jenson is an improvement over Heikki or not.

Bahrein was a horrible track for Mclaren anyway since the car had very poor handling in contrast to Ferrari and Red Bull. Maybe the Mclaren is alot better on other tracks such as Australia and maybe Jenson will struggle less ( atleast I hope, else no WCC for Mclaren again this year )

Sometimes ago I read Mark Hughes's article Why Hamilton is so good in rain? Now after getting educated by some people here I can easily say it's a kind of nonsense verbiage as well as his famous book "Lewis Hamilton: The full story" recommended by many
f1 pundits and fans. I wonder if Hughes is rubbish while lauding Hamilton's skills and providing analyzes on his driving style ...or maybe he's just stupid only in the moments he claims that Hamilton is not the only top driver on the grid.

Me too!

It's posts like this that make me hope that Jenson gets the thrashing of his life from Lewis this season. I take it 4L3X that you know all the drivers very well, otherwise how would you know that Jenson is "one of the nicest guys in the paddock".

x3
Was good to hear from them both on the forum (red button).

Things only swing back and forth in the way you describe when, like Massa and Raikkonen, or Kubica and Heidfeld, the two drivers are in the same ballpark in terms of talent and driving ability. While many would argue that Raikkonen at his best is slightly better than Massa at his, or that the peak performance of Kubica shades that of Heidfeld, they are close enough that when even the driver with slightly more ability under-performs, like Kubica in 2007 or Raikkonen in 2008, it can give a very skewed impression of how they stack up against each other.

I never ruled out the characteristics of the car as being a factor. I was decrying the tendency for writers such as Hughes to give a long convoluted explanations, involving technical matters into which as non-team members they would have necessarily limited insight, in a cased like this where the whole world (e.g., the bookies and assorted F1 pundits) can see that we are dealing with two drivers of vastly different ability.

You may not like the fact that Hamilton is massively better than Button, but unfortunately you are going to have to get used to it for the rest of this season and the ensuing two years - if Button stays the course. It is better to face up to reality - however painful - than to take solace in the "anticipative", "reactionary", "oversteery" and "understeery" placebos being dispensed by "Dr." Hughes and his press colleagues to soothe the worried supporters of the reigning world champion.

I'm not arguing because I disagree with you, but I can't help feeling you have not been paying attention to F1 for the past year and a half. Or Lewis at least.

So you guys doubt JB is nice? Fine, I just like the guy then. Never seen him full of BS like Lewis (Kimi does not have balls, I tricked Massa into a mistake, magician that I am, I'm a rain master, love the rain to show my awesomeness, and I never run the red lights on the pits Lewis - Did JB ever gone that level? Ha.)

Did you think they were in the 'same ballpark' before Kimi went to Ferrari?

If you did (I didn't) then you're in a fairly small minority. If that's the case then what made you think Massa could keep up with, let alone surpass, Kimi, based on his performance up until the end of 2006?