Whoever won it was going to deserve it.

Says who? You? Based on what? 2 DNF from lewis was about cracking under pressure?
Yeah right...

Well for me they needed to account for the 1.8s gap to SV plus his likely response to Lewis' pitting.

And they had enough data on the Renault to know how it was configured. And the memory of Oz and how good Kubi is on the brakes.

So it was always likely that SV would emerge ahead of RK at least, and that then Lewis would be stuck behind.

IMO they didn't feed all the relevant data into the decision. "Had to try something" isn't supposed to be a Mission Control output, I thought.

With hindsight what should they have done?

You're right, it does sound stupid. I should know, I wrote it.

Not reading the rest of the post, that puts it into context, is in a different class altogether though.

found this some where


Points:
Lewis: 240
Jenson: 214

Wins:
Lewis: 3
Jenson 2

Poles:
Lewis: 1
Jenson: 0

Qualifying:
Lewis: 14
Jenson: 5

Ahead when both finished:
Lewis: 10
Jenson: 4

DNF when running ahead of team mate:
Lewis: 3
Jenson: 0

DNFS:
Lewis: 4
Jenson: 2

Mechanical DNF:
Lewis: 2
Jenson: 1

So, year end tally:

1. Bahrain -
* Quali: LH 4, JB 8 (+4)
* Race: LH 3, JB 7 (+4)
1, 1

2. Australia
* Quali: LH 11, JB 4 (-7)
* Race: LH 6, JB 1 (-5)
5, 3

3. Malaysia
* Quali: LH 6, JB 8 (-2)
* Race: LH 20, JB 17 (-3)
-14, -9

4. China
* Quali: LH 6, JB 5 (-1)
* Race: LH 2, JB 1 (-1)
4, 4

5. Spain
* Quali: LH 5, JB 3 (-2)
* Race: LH 14, JB 5 (-9)
-9, -2

6. Monaco
* Quali: LH 5, JB 8 (-3)
* Race: LH 5, JB DNF
0, DNF

7. Turkey
* Quali: LH 2, JB 4 (2)
* Race: LH 1, JB 2 (1)
1, 2

8. Canada
* Quali: LH 1, JB 4 (3)
* Race: LH 1, JB 2 (1)
0, 2

9. Europe
* Quali: LH 3, JB 7 (4)
* Race: LH 2, JB 3 (1)
1, 4

10. GB
* Quali: LH 4, JB 14 (10)
* Race: LH 2, JB 4 (2)
2, 10

11. Germany
* Quali: LH 6, JB 5 (-1)
* Race: LH 4, JB 5 (-1)
2, 0

12. Hungary
* Quali: LH 5, JB 11 (6)
* Race: LH DNF, JB 8
DNF, 3

13. Belgium
* Quali: LH 2, JB 5 (3)
* Race: LH 1, JB DNF
1, DNF

14. Italy
* Quali: LH 4, JB 8 (4)
* Race: LH DNF, JB 2
DNF, 6

15. Singapore
* Quali: LH 3, JB 4 (1)
* Race: LH DNF, JB 4
DNF, 0

16. Japan
* Quali: LH 8, JB 5 (-3)
* Race: LH 5, JB 4 (-1)
3, 1

17. Korea
* Quali: LH 4, JB 7 (3)
* Race: LH 2, JB 12 (10)
2, -5

18. Brazil
* Quali: LH 4, JB 11 (7)
* Race: LH 4, JB 5 (1)
0, 6

19. Abu D
* Quali: LH 2, JB 4 (2)
* Race: LH 2, JB 3 (1)
0, 1


A) WDC Points
LH 240 - JB 214

B) Quali
LH 14 - JB 5
Net position differential: LH ahead by 1.6 positions per race over the season

C) Race
LH 11 - JB 8
* Net position differential: ignoring those races which have DNFs (of which LH 3 - JB 2): JB ahead by 0.14 positions
* Positions made up in race versus qualifying: LH -0.1 ( of which -1 position total lost over the season but 1 race one from pole), JB: +1.6 positions per race (total 27 made up)

I think the above is interesting; conclusions are:
* LH has a solid points effort over JB
* JB has lost vs LH as a result of his qualifying performance - even though on average, he has only been 1-2 positions behind lewis
* Where JB has recovered though is his in-race performance, he has over the course of the season produced brilliant recovery drives. Of course, if he qualified better, he wouldn't need to be doing such. (I am sure outbursts will be made re the DNFs, but the truth of the matter is that neither of JB's DNFs were his fault or as a result of his car going kaput due to mechanical error. I subscribe to the school of thought that mechanical DNFs are 50% of the time as a result of the driver putting the mechanicals under tolerance pressure)

For a first year in Macca, JB has done an outstanding job against a natural talent like Lewis. To say his ability to race versus Lewis is poor is IMHO a complete misstatement - he certainly has shown poorer qualifying this year - particularly when contrasted vs 2009 where he in more than one instance pulled the pole lap on his final run

2011 will be interesting

ps: apologies for any numerical errors above as I wasn't spreadsheeting and using the autosport tables!

Leave him out until he could rejoin ahead of Kubica, as he was making about 0.5s per lap on him.

I agree. Also found it strange and disappointing how that turned out. Such a fail to be stuck behind the Renault for so long while Vettel had clear air just infront. Sometimes I have the feeling McLaren don't have a clue how long a pit-stop takes...

Thanks for the statistical overviews, speng and tze

I guess we slightly disagree about that then. although to some extend, I can understand your views.

But indeed not really for this thread.

ok guys i know a lot of JB bashers here but give the guy some credit, while everyone knew tyres were going to be a issue jenson made his last and remain FAST. Thats skill as others were complaining about tyres jenson somehow made them last and with degrading tyres was giving his all and posted the fastes lap of the race before vettel got upto speed. So come on guys he has done very well, lewis had a chance for the championship and we won some races so its a good season. I still believe we have the best complete driver pairing in the pitlane -roll on 2011

Yeah, I was really impressed by his first stint!

I wasn't impressed. The tyres were a joke. Hardly any degradation at all. He just kept his tyres in a little better shape than Hamilton by driving slower at the start.

i thought so as most were suffering from degredation from Lap 5 onwards, i thought jenson was SLOW compared to leaders but what he was doing was being easy on the traction parts of the track,
Hirohide Hamashima, Bridgestone director of motorsport tyre development: said "...Jenson showed that the super soft could be durable if managed well "
So we should all be happy we have 2 good drivers Lewis was awesome as always i STILL believe we have the best driver pairing

Sorry mate, but your "stats" have only confirmed your own perspective... you seem not to acknowledge that LH has been faster most of the times that it has mattered... and that's been the crucial difference.

agree when we needed a little extra performance from the car it was always lewis who delivered.

I don't disagree - and I think that the ultimate test of being faster at the right times factor into the ultimate points score.

What I was seeking to consider is where exactly did JB fall apart this year. Low fuel quali has not worked in his favour this year, and certainly compounded by his lesser ability to get his tires up to temp quickly. Frankly speaking, I think if both JB and LH moved closer in direction to each other's driving styles, race strategy and judgement they would be improving upon what they are now. On this note, I think that LH has this year moved closer to JB's direction than vice versa

But even most the JB fans expected this.

We can all accept Lewis has been the quicker, and better racer this year... but Jenson has done a very good job. 2 time champion Alonso could only match rookie Lewis, whilst Jenson has finished a race win behind. If you said to me, JB would finish the equivalent of 10 points behind Lewis in 2010, I would have jumped for that!!!!

JB has proven his worth to Mclaren and has made Heikki look unimpressive.

A good first season for JB. The only thing is, in terms of overal performance and gap to Lewis, I dont think alot will change in 2011. If he sorts qualiftying out then he will still more often than not be behind Lewis in the race. But it should place him in better stead to mount a championship challenge again. Button's strength has never been his speed, its his consistency and ability to point score race after race. He's like a fly you just cant shake off.

C) race
LH 12 - JB 7
if you count DNF

It was not only qualy for Lewis
remember 2 times of the 5 where Button qualifyed ahead Lewis, Lewis best him at the race (Malysia & Germany)

Malysia
qualy:
LH : 20 - JB : 17
race
LH : 6 - JB : 8

At the end of the day Lewis beat again a reigning WDC

He didnt just beat him... head to head he tonked him! Considering that JB was the reigning WDC the head to head was a pretty comfortable victory.

Aside from the first few races, there was never any doubt as to the outcome. By the end we could even tell you in advance what the gap would be from track to track.

... funny thing is, JB ends with his reputation enhanced whilst LH's fans (OK, maybe just me) have downgraded him somewhat in their view of his abilities as a driver.

OK - Understood.

Re driving style, lets see what next year brings... this year's rules forced LH to drive like JB. The rules wont change too much but I think Macca will be producing a car with much better traction out of the corners next year.. and we may see the return of the real LH.

Have you really watched the season?

Have you taken into consideration that Lewis did what he did, with no little help from "his friends"
Lewis had to prove himsely not only against other teams, even at his "own" team he had to reconquer his position he had the last 2,5 years?

Alonso and Vettel had it a lot easier.

Nice race from Mr. Smooth.
It was a quiet race for him, not blazing fast, but acceptable speed. He did well to hold on for the whole race. I can see him as a worthy driver for Mclaren if he learns to be more resilient, though i would much prefer rosberg or kimi, but what can you do. Button's approach to racing is a fresh approach, he works well with the pit crew.
Button also took full advantage of Alonso's poor starts. Button seems to start well when he's near Alonso for some reason.


Ok now that i threw some praises his way. Time for the score card bashes.

He was dropped by Hamilton in the first stint. I don't think he was saving tyres or holding back though. There was a charging Alonso on his tail. You simply can't save tyres in the first stint with a WDC challenger behind you. So i don't prescribe to the tyre saving theory. What he did do well though is keep calm and his pace could keep Hamilton in sight, compared to Singapore.

After Hamilton was held up by Kubica i was expecting him to step on it and start blasting Lewis away, but lo and behold Kubica was lapping faster than Him on hard tyres, and so was Hamilton in dirty air. That 19 second gap never grew to 24s.

Then after all is said and done with Kubica out of the way, Button goes on fresh tyres after shedding the indestructible soft tyres and seemed to misuse them trying to catch Hamilton.
Button seem to blaze a couple laps then Hamilton went into berserk mode and started to cut Vettel down by 0.3s a lap. Button dropped again.

In a way i can't call these bashes. Hamilton was a monster today, Button did his best to look dignified going out as the WDC. Lewis was just too fast, even when being held up.
Not sure if much will change next year. This track gave Button his best chance to beat lewis, long straights, high degredation track, smooth track and no bumps.

Hamilton did a better job last year making his pressence felt as the reigning champion. He went out with a fight in the latter stages. Button hasn't quite been a menacing champion this year but his teammate seem to take up back the mantle again to let the top 3 know he's still in the race.

All in all I would say Button has done well this year though he was destroyed by Hamilton. Don't get me wrong a driver can do well and still be destroyed by Hamilton, it's actually a complement. He was not devastated at all, but it was made pretty clear this year which drivers are elite class, him not being part of that class.

Race after race, Hamilton has out shined Jenson, even when Button wins, such as Australia and China. It would be interesting to see how the BBC bias switches now that Button does not have the crown. Will they through him to the curb.

And there was no guarantee he wouldn't have been stuck behind a Kobi train. That was what struck me as the highest risk, based on past Kobi performance, and I was amazed that they went for it. Luckily Kobi ceded, but it could have been a disaster.

You must be out of your mind man!!

Look back on the season, and point out where Lewis has faltered in his perceived talents. He has lived up to expectations. There was never a moment when he didn't go all out.
When he could not overtake it was becuase it was physically imposible, not because of any pschological impacts from previous races. We've seen in abu dhabi what lewis had to deal with in Brazil and Malaysia when he simply could not pass.

I would say he was the best driver this year. When Mclaren got the car working, not the best but working, we see what we are all used to see him doing.

I was thinking Alonso was looking really good this last half, but after today, and how Lewis handled Kubica vs how Alonso with a rookie petrov. I'd still say Hamilton has the edge.

As a Hamilton fan i'd say he picked up some stripes this year regarding pit calls, and staying on top of things. Downgraded, how??

If anything Button was downgraded from a "top class driver, he can defend his title!!, first british who can do the double!! he's fast as Hamilton!!" to an above average, B++, driver with experience to keep things calm and level headed.

Me too

But thats only because I was one of the rare ppl saying that Button was the best driver of 2009. season.

Ok i think i misunderstood. Downgraded who Ham or But?

Honestly I would say in the general public, Jenson may be downgraded. But for me, he's right were i expected based on watching him over the years. 2004 is Button in a nut shell.

Can you expand on that?

I find it hard to compare that season to currently.

Yeah I misread JJCale's post too (deleted my reply).

I'd say my opinion of Jense has moved up quite a bit. Though it all depends where we each started doesn't it?

You have only to look , how the rivals spoke of McLaren/ Hamilton

At Trukey, Marko & Horner said, Lewis was the reason their drivers crashed
asked who their biggset rival is : Hamilton
Marko on Friday: I thik Ferrari had a higher tyre wear than Hamilton and us

Alonso was asked sometime at season who his strongest opponents are, and he answered: RBR and Hamilton (not McLaren )

It's telling, how the rivals speak of other competitors

Mine had moved up also until the Korean race. We def lost the WCC at Korea.

How would anything there have made any difference?

The problem with this is Vettel would have got to that window quicker, therefore if RB were sensible they would pit vettel probably 4 laps earlier than hamilton, as it would take lewis an extra 4 laps to get the gap up.

The only way lewis could get ahead of vettel was by pitting before him or by overtaking on track. You can see the latter was very unlikely to happen so it was worth a gamble of pitting him beforehand.

I think they took the least worst option on offer but it was still an option with very little chance of success. Just like brazil in fact, in both cases there was no downside, they still had 2nd and 3rd (in this case) sewn up regardless.

Really? When he was matching Lewis before the pit stops, maintaining the gap comfortably whilst keeping his tyres in shape? Sometimes i think you try too hard to be objective and end up being just negative I saw him as fast as Lewis today, true Lewis had some sprints but then lost time as he had to let his tyres recover. In the 2nd stint it would have been pretty dumb to pressure Lewis, the teams only hope was for Vettel to blow his engine and even then only give it to Fred.

Yeah, speak for yourself matey!

Edit: I see what you mean now. Yes, agree with you.

The short answer to that is "no".

Well as long as Mac were alert and ready, Lewis could just follow Vettel into the pits at any time. That was worst case, the fallback.

Best case is Lewis gets the gap on Kubica and dives in leaving Vettel to do another lap on his worn options.

As it was, the gaps and pace made it a certainty that what did happen would happen (I listed these in the ~25 thread). I might have missed something, but I can't see what.

Macca could have taken that chance but they'd have to assume their counterparts at RB were completely incompetent.

They had to try something different in my view. What you've missed is that if lewis managed to use his fresh tyres to get past kubica then he may have been able to jump vettel, not a bad gable given lewis's overtaking ability and the lack of downside.

I noticed Marko and Vettel were really friendly to Hamilton on the podium and kind of blanked Button a bit. Hamilton to Red Bull ????

I'm not trying to be objective, nor negative. But if you think Jenson was as fast as Lewis today, you're only deluding yourself. You have to take into account that between lap 24 and lap 45, Lewis had a fresh set of tyres yet couldn't do anything with them because he was stuck behind Kubica. Without Kubica, Lewis, just like Vettel, would've closed the gap down to Jenson and after Jenson's pit-stop, he'd have been 15 seconds behind Lewis, instead of 4 seconds. After Kubica disappeared, it was no wonder Button could keep up easily as his tyres were in better shape. And still, at a certain point in that last stint, he at one point dropped a gap of 3 seconds to Lewis.

Matching Lewis before the pit-stops, in this scenario, still meant Jenson was 3 seconds behind him. If he planned on leapfrogging Lewis, why wasn't he at least 1 second behind? Reason is: not quick enough. That's not being negative, it's simply explanation the situation.

The way they did it got Lewis one lap on new primes behind two cars, against Vettel's maximum attack lap on whatever was left of his old options in free air. Starting from about 1s behind.

That could be foreseen in the data, so I really don't see it.

Plus the downside if it didn't work was that they couldn't stress Vettel's engine or capitalise if the mac worked better on primes. Best case was he'd get past RK and still be behind SV. That was worst case in the more obvious strategy of waiting till they could clear Kubica.

Nah, I think all three of them were genuinely happy for various reasons, though I'm pretty sure that they were all happy about one thing.... Alonso didn't win the WDC

Agreed, the BBC's Mr. Rogers treatment of Button is NOT going to change.

I'll say this, if Button can find (and maintain) improved pace in next years car, while Hamilton somehow loses his, then we're in store for a real vomit inducing jock-riding lovefest.

It's hard to compare because of the teammate difference. But Jenson's performance was acceptable then and now. Being a WDC adds a little more expectation but still a pass grade overall. He's good but just not exciting, threatening or memorable i guess.
I would take note of him back then, because he was the only English driver (i'm not british by the way) but it wasn't really because of his driving ability. He just happened to be doing what was expected in a really good car, his teammate grabbing most of the attention and taking more risks. Sato wasn't at all better but i remember him more for some reason, maybe because he was so aggressive that he would force the engines to blow up prematurely, or maybe because of his daring moves.

Jenson was just a driver making full use of the car, never really seemed to be challenging, but he was capable of getting podiums.
I don't really know what to say, he's not great and he's not mediocre; just not a polarizing guy. I think that year is the average of his career; 2010 being his best.

I really just expected clean error free driving, with performances matching the car; just like 2004 (though BAR had illegal drive shafts in the front to control wheel locking).

Well he's been beat in most of the races so i guess thats a beating but nevertheless Jenson performed well


I dont think Jenson had the pace i dont think he'd deliberately just let Lewis drive away from him

Cheers. I don't think 2004 was an average season for him, purely because of the high consistency he pulled out over the year, that he hasn't matched since. Also, I recall he suffered less from personal setup issues and preferences. But I see what you mean nevertheless. It's good to see he's still improving, even with his experience. Gives me hope for 2011.

But you're not taking into account that Button's strategy wasn't optimized for time. While he was certainly competitive on the options, he would have been quicker on the primes for much of that period. But since pitting would have just put as the third car in that train with Robert and Lewis and not under any threat from Rosberg, it made sense to keep him out and watch how things unfolded. Button wasn't racing Lewis today - the goal was to finish behind him and see if a miracle would unfold for Lewis.