Ok then:-

lap 11
Lewis 2:03.921 Button 2:03.832
lap 12
Lewis 2:03.928 Button 2:04.029
lap 13
Lewis 2:04.332 Button 2:03.730
lap 14
Lewis 2:03.899 Button 2:03.852
lap 15
Lewis pits

Bearing in mind Lewis was being held up by Rosberg being only 0.6s behind and Button was in clear air driving flat out trying to catch Webber, really outstanding by Button to make up 0.5s to Lewis in 4 laps. By the way Lewis's fastest lap was 2:03.283 up this point of the race i can see that Button was really burning rubber, i believe these were the only 3 laps in the race when Jenson was quicker

Trogggy explain the 16 laps in clear air when Jenson was on average 0.8s slower than Lewis?

But even then Jenson wasnt really going any faster than Lewis and Lewis was being held up badly by Rosberg, look how much he sped away from Rosberg after he got in front of him

LH was overtaken on the track.
JB wasn't.
Therefore JB drove a better race than LH.
Do I believe that?
Of course not. But it makes at least as much sense as comparing lap times when drivers aren't going flat out.

+1 Probably Timba after a bump on the head.

Come on...

Well then youre saying that Lewis was going more flat out than Jenson?

Which bit?
You think I should believe that?
I said it's as ludicrous as the lap-time comparisons, do you disagree?
Actually I think it might be a bit more credible, maybe you're right.
After all Button managed to keep a faster Red Bull behind him but Lewis was passed by a slower Merc.

Yep, you've convinced me.

He's said that himself (Jenson, that is).

As has Whitmarsh (in the quote I gave earlier).

I know what youre getting at but were as much as anything comparing out and out pace and there was times in the race when Button was driving flat out, im surprised that Button would choose to coast as much as he did if that was the case, you wouldnt see Lewis drive like that in clear air

You would never see Lewis drive like that and im sure they would have told Button how much quicker Lewis was going

Before the race nobody knew just how well the tyres were going to last. If he (Button) gambled that he could pass by looking after his tyres until other drivers' tyres went off then I think that's understandable (unless you're using hindsight). As it turned out passing was pretty much impossible for the top cars, so maybe the sensible race was to coast anyway, given they're driving relatively untested cars. And no, I don't really see Hamilton doing that (willingly) either.

Jenson drove like that because he was relying on the tyres to give way on the drivers in front of him, hence, why he did not use his tyres as a race driver at all. He has got it in his head that he is the smoothest driver in town and he is the only one who can look after his tyres.

Look at his lastest reasons for his p*ss poor performance, he admits it, and he is hoping for tyres to detoriate faster in Australia, thus inidicating again, he is not a racing driver he is someone who can handle the car, hoping to pooper scooper on others mistakes.

Why would a pure racing driver wish for others to have tyre problems, a real racing driver would be focussed on his driving and giving it plenty in the race.

Yes i think Jenson needs to get this cruise and collect mentality out of his head

one thing you never find lewis doing is this:

http://www.sportrelief.com/whats-on/video-...jensons-success

jenson has a great sense of humour lolz

So, do you think that Jenson will eventually match Hamilton or get the better of him? If so, by which race? (Genuine question.)

I like the idea of this new excuse. Whenever my favourite driver is slower than his team-mate, he wasn't going flat out, and whenever he is quicker, it's because they're both going flat out but my favourite driver is just faster.

Handy. Makes comparison of pace just about impossible barring very specific circumstances. Sadly, I don't buy it. The idea that Button spent most of the race deliberately coasting while Hamilton spent most of it pushing harder, when the team are sharing information on tyre degradation (plus other reasons I mentioned in an earlier post), is not plausible to me.

James Corden is about as funny as mould.

Come on guys, one swallow does not make a summer. Neither does Hamilton beating Button in Bahrain, mean Button is in for a hammering on track at the hands of Lewis. Lets wait and see how the next 4-6 races pan out, before the on-line assassination of Buttons talent takes place. I've never seen this forum invaded by such fanboyism. Calm down lads and at times try and have a little perspective. It was one race. Thats all!

When using reductio ad absurdum to make a point, you should try to ensure you're not comparing apples with oranges.

I don't know why the poster who has produced data demonstrating that when both Hamilton and Button were in clean air, the 2008 world champion was 0.8 sec a lap quicker than his successor as WDC has not convinced you, but blithely asserting that they were not "going flat out" does nothing to help Button - unless you prefer to think of F1 as an exhibition and not a race.

Which begs the question what is the point of a race - in which by definition the objective is to get to the finish line first - if the losing competitor can offer "I wasn't going flat out" as a plausible excuse. What the hell was Button doing if he wasn't "going flat out"? Despite the new no refueling regulations they're all supposed to be "going flat out"; it's just that the are now under the constraint of having to do so while also looking to make their tyres last longer than heretofore in order not to be disadvantaged by having to stop more often than their competitors. Isn't that what Jenson's fans told us he'd be so good at - going fast yet looking after his tyres at the same time? Yet one race in and his fans are claiming "he wasn't going flat out" while he's alluding to mystery problems with his car that the team need to fix - because his under-performance is all their fault, of course.....

The people you're arguing with are for the most part - the deranged guy who keeps replying to his own posts excepted - not gloating. And that's not only because we realize it's just the one race, but also because we know that Hamilton dominating Button in both qualifying and the race is nothing to get particularly excited about. Read our posts from last year: it's what we expected; what the bookies expected; what anyone who's knowledgeable about F1 - whichever driver or team he supports - should have anticipated. The form book is usually a reliable guide.

You could put those two into any car in the grid and give them each a day to find the optimal set up and get comfortable with it - and I would bet you any money that Hamilton would be at the very minimum two tenths quicker than Button at the end of said day. I've been watching this sport for three decades and have supported French (Arnoux), Brazilian (Piquet), Finnish (Hakkinen) and British (Hill) drivers. Now I support Hamilton, and I'm already convinced he's the best of the drivers I have supported.

It is painfully obvious to anyone who knows F1 that Button is not in the same league as Hamilton, yet you and other Button apologists will probably spend the whole of this season contriving all sorts of rationalizations and justifications for what is plain to the whole world and reflected in the bookies odds and the pundits tips: that Hamilton is a much faster driver.

Now it is possible that, like Lauda against Prost, he will find some way to compensate for this speed deficit over the course of the season. That remains to be seen. But the irritable way he responded to press questions about the gap to Lewis yesterday is not encouraging. Button must, like Lauda against Prost, get used to the reality that he is likely to be slower on most occasions. He must not hide behind excuses about something being wrong with the car or not being in clear air. He should give credit to his teammate when it's due, and hold up his hand and admit when Hamilton is simply too good. That way he'll not only win a lot of respect, he'll also be in a better position mentally to capitalize if Hamilton gets into difficulties.

If I use reductio ad absurdum to make a point I'll be sure to bear that in mind. As I haven't I don't see your point.

As for the rest, it's mainly 'Anyone who knows anything agrees with me' so not really open to argument. So not much point.
I think Vettel was the fastest driver last year btw. There must have been a mix-up in the driver standings.

Nicely written but not totally true. Reading some posts in this topic, for instance most of the second half of page 54, is all about gloating. If you really all didn't get so excited about 1 race result, that wouldn't be there. It just keeps repeating itself, and if there's no Button fan trying to make some dumb defending comment, they simply keep replying to each other while bashing Button. And that's not just 'the deranged guy who keeps replying to his own posts'. That was the nicely written part btw.

What i want to know is what does "reductio ad adsurdum" mean?

What I want to know is what Wheelbanger thinks it means.

One of the best posts around here.

"reductio ad absurdum "
means to disprove somebodys statement by showing him that it's illogical, because it contradicts itself
>The statment includes an antithesis

Or because it gives a ridiculous (absurd) result if you take the argument to extremes.

Not hard is it

Indeed...

Timba!?!, welcome back!!!!!

fanboy gloating breeds more fanboy gloating...we need to chill out and break the cycle, there is still a long season ahead

trying to prove Lewis wasnt faster than Jenson all weekend when he clearly was (even Jenson accepts that) will only make this thread worse.

It doesnt mean Lewis will be as comfy vs Jenson for the rest of the season.

Jenson indeed did a decent job all things considered

Yes, to put it simply
the argument will make non-sense.
It puts itself ad absurdum

Back to topic....

The irony is, I've said that I think LH is faster than JB. But because I'm arguing that it isn't (anywhere near) proven fact after one race, and that Lewis beat Jenson in qualifying but they both did about as much as they reasonably could in the race, I'm accused of being a 'Button apologist' by Mr 'Reductio ad Absurdum' - and of being a Button fanboy by you???

Jenson did a decent job in the race; he was a bit rubbish in qualifying. Or at least that's how I'd sum it up. Apparently that means I lurve Jenson.

I just watched the recording I made of the race.

Lap 23 Button's radio:
OK Jenson, pace is good. You are catching Michael ahead. We need a full race distance on this set. Look after the tyres.

How strange that Jenson should have listened to his engineer, not realising that his real job is to impress the eejits on this forum!!

Might as well break my posting duck by giving that one a standing ovation

I've been watching F1 since Hunt was in a Hesketh and Hamilton is one of the very best (for his three seasons) that I've ever seen. If he keeps this up and stays healthy, he's headed for the pantheon of the greats in the long run. Button is a likeable bloke and a very good racer who played a blinder when he was given a front-running car last year, but ... well, the rest gets long-winded and upsets Button fans. Besides, I couldn't put it better than you already have.

Nice acting there but I prefer the real thing:

The really funny thing is, that Lewis got the information (2x) "We are happy with you tyres"

What is so funny about that then, all the drivers got that message

Looking forwards to reading your posts and hearing Hamiltons reasoning when, inevitably, Button beats him in one of the forthcoming races. For now this post is bookmarked.

Posts deleted - please stop discussing each other. The topic is Jenson v Lewis.

I know it's the only the bbc, but they have a good little article on hamilton v button today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8569435.stm

That's actually written by Mark Hughes of Autosport fame (I'm surprised that there's no mention of Kubica ).

I have a feeling that, like Heikki, Jenson too will be harder on his tyres than Lewis. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I hear, smooth does not always equal less tyre wear. In fact, constant lateral loading on the tyre due to taking a long trajectory around the corner can result in increased tyre wear compared to spike loading it by approaching and exiting the corner in the straightest line possible such as what Lewis does. Where Lewis is more hard than Jenson, is on the brakes because he leaves braking and turn in as late as possible then brakes extremely hard. But if he could survive it in a hot climate on a track notorious for being hard on its brakes such as Bahrain (albeit suffering rear brake problems), he should be ok in the cooler, less brake intensive tracks that follow.

I'm really tired of Button using the 'wind' as an excuse. I can't recall any other driver using it so often.

lol the article writes this



Its becoming too obvious most British journalists are rooting for Jenson.

Heikki made it quite clear practice form means zero when going up against Lewis....

men lie, women lie...statistics and laptimes dont. Jenson was in enough clear air to prove he had Hamiltons pace... he never showed it in both stints.

onto Australia

he is right though that one race doesnt decide everything

Mark Hughes has always been a Button apologist, no surprise there.

You might want to re-read it again to see that button has not blamed 'wind' in the article. He is quoted as saying the car "felt strange", which was mentioned after qualifying, but there is no actual reference to him saying the wind affected him in the article - Mark Hughes is merely giving an opinion on the facts.

You're right, he did not say it himself indeed. What I ment to say is that Button is affected by the wind quite easily, and I've heard him using it as an excuse before. Now Hughes uses the excuse for him. That's all.

As soon as I saw the author I didn't bother reading it.