He sure is but do you think Hamilton fans are going to lose any sleep if Jenson does finish a couple of points ahead of Lewis in the championship? I certainly won't as the season could be written off anyway after the next race. I think both drivers have shown flashes of brilliance this season. Nobody expected Jenson to be as close to Lewis in the points as he he now, and winning two races so early on surprised most. Lets not forget there was a point in the season where Jenson was leading Lewis by 21 points running up to Monaco, and it was looking very embarrassing for Lewis points wise, but his performances in races were considerably better than his poor qualifying form. Some of Lewis's best races of his career so far were early this season (China, Malaysia, Australia), and I certainly won't be disappointed overall with his season. I support both drivers because they are British, and although I think Lewis is the better driver, I won't be disappointed should Jenson finish higher. Its been a very consistant season for Jenson and well done to him.

Its abit early in Hamilton's career to make these kind of assumptions and 10 years is a long time to possibly win another WDC. I think most F1 enthusiasts would welcome Lewis's approach to driving and I hope to god he doesn't stop taking risks and going for gaps just to be more conservative in his approach.

"if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver"..

Ooops.... that part of my post wasnt meant for you.

In fact ... I respect your opinions when I see them elsewhere in the forum. I was more responding to some FA fans who only come to this thread to to bash LH.

...That said, I find it very odd that fans of another team and another driver would be regularly in a versus thread about another team's drivers (whom they profess not to care one way or the other about) to only make comments about one of the drivers and ignore the other... and they also spend their time (when in the thread) disparaging the leading driver of the two and have no criticism of the other who is behind on points and in the head to head race and qualifying table.... but I guess that that is their right, no matter how annoying it is.

He brought himself back into contention with some stellar drives but if he chooses to go rogue and get reckless then it would definately be a missed opportunity. If the Red Bulls beat him from here on in, without him doing anything stupid, then the better driver and team won.

First part is a load of bollocks at worst, or meerly your (incorrect) preception of the way things are if I am being generous.

As for the second part, well once again we are back to this problem that some people think one race tells everything you need to know about two drivers.

I could counter that Button being 3 points behind when hes not as fast a driver as Lewis is and is adjusting to a new team shows the true class of Button over Hamilton. However it would be a flawwed argument just like yours as things are not that simple and one race, hell one season doesnt tell a story when comparing two drivers.

Dont mention FA in this thread... what you need to do is to go into the FA v FM thread and set out nothing but negative opinions about FA in page after page (whilst ignoring FM) and tell everyone that youre just being a longtime objective fan of the sport

Well the points are a huge simplification of everything that goes on in the races. If you're only going to focus on the points, why waste all that time watching when you could be doing something constructive and just check the points table afterwards?

You can get all judgmental about the last 3 races, but Hamilton has been unlucky as well as unwise. 9 times out of 10 his steering wouldn't have broken in Monza, most drivers would have given him the corner in Singapore and/or they'd have come off the worse, and several drivers had much bigger offs in Suzuka FP (including JB) but didn't hit anything (apart from which he overcame that disadvantage anyway).

It's way too soon to start speculating about how he's thrown the season away.

"Open mind" != "making things up as I'd like them best"

I'm sure Lulu will be mighty disappointed and so he should. These guys are highly competitive and don't like being beaten.

I didn't say he must stop taking risks but he needs to look at the bigger picture. You simply can't win every race and can't overtake anybody and everybody. He needs to play the long game on some occasions especially at the business end of the season, which seems to be his achilles heel.

So lewis makes a bad decision in monza and is partly at fault for a racing incident ai singapore and it's a wasted opportunity.

Alonso makes several significant mistakes earlier in the season but if the bulls beat him from here it wasn't a wasted opportunity?

Although I notice you say the better driver will have won which might be tantamount to saying it was a wasted opp?

I find it interesting because if you could obviously look at all drivers and say they could have done this or that differently but I guess if we consider alonso and hamilton the best we could say that, although they had less of an opportunity than mark and vettel, due to the RB drivers mistakes they had the opportunity to win if they maximised their car potential more than the RB drivers did...so it is a wasted opportunity.

But that type of wasted opportunity is different to having the best car and not winning.

That's done already (not by robefc, of course). As with any other driver thread, really.

So once again, Hamilton isn't that special...

I agree with that totally. Hamilton has not thrown this season away. Vettel and Alonso have made more mistakes even.

Can't really argue with that, although I think he had to go for it in singapore.

Forget it. You made it up, there's no proof for your theory. My mind is open enough. Try it yourself.

Regardless, if Jenson finishes ahead over a 19 race season we have to accept that he did a better job. Lewis is a better driver, for sure, and IMO has blown Jenson away, but when all is said and done the statistics of the season is what will be recorded. The rest really is just semantics, subjective interpretation and waffle.

Simples

I have to admit that I LOLed at that...

You should tell the others that a little humour goes a long way when you do what you do...

It's not all about how fast you are either. I've been watching this sport for a long time and I normally don't get too involved in this X vs Y threads because there plenty ways to go racing. The point I'm actually trying to make is that probably every driver on the grid, given the right car, can win races and dominate but not all of them have the capacity to win multiple championships unless they are in a trully dominant car. I have no doubt that Hamilton is better than Button but I'm very impressed with the way Button negated Hamilton's on track advantage by good intelligent driving. Hamilton will do well to learn a thing or two from Button.

Lots of things are true but not provable, you can't prove your case either, that doesn't lead anywhere. You're clearly wrong about where it happened, it was nowhere near T2, so there's no reason to think you're right about the rest of it. You don't discuss the evidence, such as it is, it's just an attitude that, given that you already know everything, anything unfamiliar must be made up.

Watch it again, see if JB really kept his foot in along the pitwall.

In the situations described it wouldn't be a split second though, would it? No doubt the circumstances of his championship position will have been playing on his mind last year and he will have decided beforehand that he should minimise risk. This year is different because he's playing catch-up but there are still drivers to be particularly wary of, including Hamilton, because of their do-or-die attitude. Whether that makes Button a lesser driver I guess is down to personal opinion and the ultimate result but I don't see how it is quite the split-second decision you suggest, more a frame of mind.

I certainly didn't condone Alonso's mistakes earlier in the season but there is big difference in squandering your opportunities later in the season as there is less time to get back in it.

I personally would consider Hamilton not winning it this year as a missed opportunity based on the opportunities the Red Bulls have afforded him. I'd feel the same if Alonso went rotten now.

I never said it happened in T2. It was before turning into T2.

There's no evidence, so don't tell me I don't discuss it. You're not using any other sources as I do.

I can't agree, lost points are lost points whenever they occur.

You say there's less time to get back into it but lewis wouldn't be in it if he wasn't brilliantly consistent all the way up to monza and alonso would probably now be ahead if he hadn't made mistakes earlier in the season.

if alonso and lewis both drive well from now on but are beated by the RBs, to then say lewis wasted an opportunity and alonso didn't would only make sense if alonso had an inferior car to lewis. On average up until now I'd say the ferrari has been marginally better, I'm hoping to be able to revise that view after the next 3 races!

Apart from China, I don't know of a single Button decision which "negated Hamilton's on track advantage by good intelligent driving". The early pit decision in Melbourne was forced on him as he himself admitted, and since China Button has done very little to write home about other than be consistent. I too have been watching this sport for a long time and IMO Button is very good but Hamilton is in another league. The difference between those leagues might only be a few tenths at most, but at this level of motorsport a few tenths is plenty.

It was not anywhere near T2.

That's a bit contradictionary. A few tenths (were' not really talking more than two here, or do we?) is exactly not "another league". It's just being a bit faster. Which might easily be outweighed by other things, and that's what the points table shows.

Different leagues, that was Hamilton vs. Kovalainnen. Some expected this to continue with Button - well...

You sucked me into this..

I ofcourse mean T1, I have no idea what made you claim I said it was anywhere near T2?

Well it's hard to know, comparing 09 with this year, Alonso with Vettel, I guess there could be a general strategy in his mind, "take no risks" or "take no prisoners" sort of thing, but each situation develops and is over in a tiny period of time.

I just don't think an F1 driver would decide to give way when he didn't need to, because of the points situation. Or decide not to give way and have a crash, because he's behind in the championship. I think the drivers have their own instincts how they react to a driver swerving at them, and that the instinct is about ego and dominance more than the arithmetic of the wdc.

I guess we could compromise, and say it was between T1 and T2?

He'll get over it, and should he win the WDC next year or heavily outscore his teammate, it'll all be forgotten anyway. If he spends the rest of his career dwelling over a few points from this season he'll never win another race, and thats not the Lewis we have seen so far IMO.



You have a point, although its great to have a self belief that you can do all those things. Maybe Lewis goes a little too far in the heat of the moment, but thats determination and the desire to win. I find myself shouting at Jenson to push abit harder at times (like Singapore, Japan) when Lewis was out of contention, but he's often far too conservative. His points show that he is close to Lewis, but had the risk he (Lewis) took in Singapore paid off, he would be right up there in the championship fight. Sometimes gambles are worth the risk IMO, and I wish both pilots well for the rest of the season.

We are talking about this Turn 2?

Let me remind you what I'm actually arguing:

Ones general state of mind has a lot to do with how you react in a given situation. People approach risk in different ways depending upon their situation - so a driver may be prepared to take more risks to get something they don't have than they will when they stand to lose. If something as minor and transient as hunger can make a difference to the way a human reacts to risky gambles, I would expect that the difficult situation of a long awaited once-in-a-lifetime chance at a title win might be really very influential.

So sure, mathematical reasoning maybe but the final decision will still be heavily influenced by overarching concerns. In that regard, this year is very different to last for Button as it is compared with 2007 and 2008 for Hamilton.

Look at the situations in context. Hamilton was leading the championship at a very important stage before he went all silly. If he had been just a little less keen he would be in a far better situation than he finds himself in now and his consistency would still have been praised.

Alonso was always chasing it and I still don't condone them, but he has the sense to settle for the points from time to time. Look at Japan. He was very quick in the race, quicker than Hamilton if you analyse the laptimes, but he didn't go all willy nilly in going for broke. He played the long game as he understood that the Red Bulls were too fast for him to mount a serious challenge. His Singapore win was another good example... After the pitstop he said he managed the engine and the mechanicals based on the nature of the track. It could've been easy for him to get carried away in trying to open a gap from Vettel. That's championship driving, something that Hamilton has not yet learnt.

Just like his championship driving at Fuji in 07, which has costed Alonso his title in 2007

And add Spa 2010 to that list. Nice championship drive by going in the wet full over curbs which costed him to spin and crash.

He would have got a drive through penalty anyways for an unsafe release. He lost nothing there.

If for Alonso and Hammy will be a missed opportunity how you will call it for RedBulls drivers?

Please drop 2007. Wrong thread for that.

He also hit Button and Massa at T1 at Monza and was lucky not to have picked up damage.

There is no question that Lewis could have and maybe should have been more cautious at Monza and to a lesser extent in Singapore. The fact is though people people will only focus on those events because they resulted in DNFs.

F1 is a results business and negatives tend to be exagerated.

Top link " When choosing between options yielding gains, humans are on average risk-averse (i.e. avoiding options with a higher uncertainty or variance), while when choosing between options yielding losses below a reference point, humans make riskier choices."

That fits with Jense in Brazil last year, for sure.

But when the over-aggressive Sebastian Vettel swerves at him, can he be said to be making "a choice" in that same sense? Or does he just react according to his basic nature?

Yep I understand you I think. I don't see Jenson backing out of it at all round T1, until they're under the shadow of the footbridge. There Vettel has a last little move, Jenson moves away from him and makes no more ground.

I think given the distance he'd made up, the fact that he's on the inside and that he has a bit more power, Jense would have been fully alongside at the end of the pitwall but for that moment under the footbridge.

Can't prove it though .

Well what I'm trying to say is, Turn 2 doesn't have anything to do with it.


















So what you're saying is, that at screen number 3, Button took his foot of the pedal?

Why in hell would he do that? Any reason? I just don't get why you think that. There's no reason whatsoever for Jenson there to lift, at all.

At every shot, except for the last one, Button's front tyre is alligned with Vettel's rear tyre.

With the speed these cars are doing, any momentary lift will set you back meters immediately.

And being on the inside doesn't mean you're quicker in a straight line. They were simply traveling as a similar speed, until the entrance of Turn 1, where Button (being on the line he was on, and with Vettel taking the line he took) lifted at the entrance of Turn 1 to avoid a collision, and to allow him take the corner properly. The pitwall has nothing to do with it, Turn 2 has nothing to do with it.

Hamilton has beaten Button in qualifying so far by about the same margin than he beat Kovalainen, though I agree Button has been a lot better in the races than Kovvy. 10 years more experience and a WDC can do that for you when compared to a guy with one season in Renault followed by being Hamilton's team mate, mind you. In fact, if it weren't for Australia and China the "helicopter view" of this season is that Button has barely troubled his team mate all year. If neither of them wins the WDC this year, the points total will be cold comfort regardless of who finishes ahead. Unless there is a huge shift in the next three races, though, Button is already pigeon-holed for me as "nice try, but you're not as good - next!"

Almost 20000 posts now.

Wow quite the argument being had here.

I was expecting Button to get alongside, he had the car to do it but didn't, so I think when Vettel made that extra little move he started to have a feather. Also I expected him to get pushed into the pitlane exit rather than give it up.

Contrast Lewis against Kubica in 08 or against Webber this year.

Is that such a bad thing?

He went there for, according to him, a challenge against one of the very fastest drivers out there, the driver that Brawn, Williams and Dennis have described as 'sublime'.

Maybe he'll come away with a bloody nose by being beaten by Lewis overall, but he's run him closer than the vast majority (of 'experts', at least) predicted, and to use an analogy, if a challenger is up against one of the best boxers in the last twenty years, he then goes the distance and gets beaten by just a few points, would you think he was sh1te?

I really admire Lewis - the pressure on such a young guy into a top team, the guffaws he's made and how he's taken them on the chin...... and some of his unbelievable drives. Though as someone that likes them both equally, I've been blown away at how close it's been between them through the year.

JB might lose out against Lewis this year, but he can hold his head up imo, and I'd bet the situation is even closer next year.

Vettel is driving in a straight line so I'm very unsure what 'extra little move' would have scared Button so much that, even though he had a completely free path ahead of him, would make him take his foot of the pedal.

See the screens, the gap between the first and second to last picture is the same, kinda pointing at both cars using their throttle for 100%. Only because of your theory that 'Button had more power' do you think differently. Perhaps he just didn't, but it can't cross your mind. There's no visual evidence that he dropped back after the bridge, so I'm surprised you're still supporting this theory that he lifted while being under it because Vettel made a certain move. Can we perhaps conclude that Jenson isn't capable of pressing his throttle pedal 100%? That sounds kinda serious.

I don't think and never have thought JB was sh1te, nor would I use that word for any other driver capable of putting in a good time in an F1 car and finishing a season in one piece. Since the pairing was confirmed I've predicted Hamilton beating Button but that it'd be closer than LH vs HK. I also predicted that Button would beat Hamilton on two or three occasions where the track suited him, and in fact if anything I was quite surprised at the long run of races after China when Hamilton was consistently faster in qually, race and even most FP sessions.

I predict pretty much the same next year. Button isn't going to get magically faster because he's been in the team for a year - that's just wishful thinking. He has to get used to new tyres and a new car for 2011 just like Hamilton (no DD, no f-duct, new balance and setup challenges) plus he also has to get to grips with KERS, something with which Hamilton has plenty of experience. If anything, Hamilton's widely-acknowledged superior adaptibility coupled with another year's experience could see him leave Button floundering in the first few races at least.

Or it might not, and Button could take an early lead like in 2009. That's why I watch F1 - anything can happen, and it usually does ;)

Is that why this thread is 500 pages long?

My apologies, I didn't mean to imply you did say he was sh1te!

Your prediction... all fair points, all possible, but I prefer your last line

To be honest, the only reason I have for thinking things might be a little closer is because of the time and experience JB would have had with his side of the garage - which I think is one of his weakest points; his ability to get the right people around him that can understand how he wants the car. For the difference in years of experience I think Lewis must be doing an outstanding job here. Imo.

It doesn't really show on the still frames but Vettel made a last little move towards the pitwall around when they were under the bridge. Anyway I think having explored it thoroughly we should each go our own way on that episode, I suspect that pissing contests aside we secretly agree that JB is not a great wheel-to-wheel combatant .

If we had a stat somewhere about career first lap gains and losses I think we'd see Jense in the lower half of the table. Anyone know of one?

It is interesting that Lewis was able to perform well in qually/race day in japan. I think it was due to the fact that the pressure was off as his weekend had gone so badly up to that point. It will also be interesting to see how he does in Korea which may be the last chance to fight for the title. Will he succumb again to his late season championship pressure phobia?


Ps. As I recall Lewis never reached Alonso as his replacement gearbox had issues. So no challenge.

quite shameless how people continually tar reality to suit their agenda....

so you mean starting from 8 with his rivals all the way infront, knowing any midfield entanglements in the first corner/lap could easily take him out the title race entirely wasnt pressure?

or in qualifying, knowing he already crashed the car, and done hardly any laps to set up the car properly (in such a tricky circuit) wasnt pressure enough for him to tighten up?


He better not miss one apex in Korea Free Practice or yall will descend on him.