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Grenada
QUOTE (undersquare @ Mar 9 2010, 15:06) *
IMO it's one of those times when the majority is correct - Jenson is very good, Lewis is once-in-a-decade special as SFW said.

Watching the bits of testing video it seemed quite odd watching a McLaren being tiptoed into corners with Jense, even Kovy was more positive with it. If I were a JB fan I'd be very nervous about what's about to happen.



But ... but what if everyone is wrong? OMG!!!
Arion
QUOTE (undersquare @ Mar 9 2010, 11:12) *
People are being kind to Jense by talking about the acclimatisation. Nobody's saying that about Alonso.

edit: snap JJ


exactly, you almost forgot we're talking about the reigning WDC who has been in F1 for a decade.

undersquare
QUOTE (Grenada @ Mar 9 2010, 15:57) *
But ... but what if everyone is wrong? OMG!!!


There should be a poll/thread about who's NOT going to be surprised one way or another lol.gif
Lights
QUOTE (Arion @ Mar 9 2010, 16:58) *
exactly, you almost forgot we're talking about the reigning WDC who has been in F1 for a decade.

And went to McLaren for a new 'challenge'. He better prove he can handle that challenge then! It's not an excuse.
Grenada
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 5 2010, 14:25) *
I find this hard to believe. Lewis trashed his tyres many times in his debut season. And Jenson has an obviously smooth style.

This does not add up.



This the actual quote from 'Autosport':-

QUOTE
AUTOSPORT
MARCH 4

Page 13: NEWS PIT & PADDOCK

AUTOSPORT SAYS...
GLENN FREEMAN
NEWS EDITOR

Guess which of the McLaren drivers was over-driving at last week’s test and suffering excessive tyre wear? If you’ve applied perceived wisdom to your answer, then you’re well and truly wrong. Yup, according to Bridgestone, super-smooth world champion Jenson Button is working his tyres too hard, while aggressive, oversteer-lover Lewis Hamilton has it under control.


Not sure if that's the whole story but we'll soon find out.
dabrasco
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 5 2010, 15:25) *
I find this hard to believe. Lewis trashed his tyres many times in his debut season. And Jenson has an obviously smooth style.

This does not add up.


I really thought this post was sarcasm...still a good laugh lol.gif lol.gif
Grenada
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 9 2010, 16:31) *
I really thought this post was sarcasm...still a good laugh lol.gif lol.gif



I think by putting the words "debut season" in his post, he should have suddenly sat up and said: "Oh!".
rolf123
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 9 2010, 16:17) *


I'm talking about drivers going to winning cars. No doubt, the McLaren is a winning car.

When Senna went to Williams, nobody ever said "he'll need a few races to get used to it". Neither did they say that about Prost to Williams. Good drivers have always been able to leap into a fast car and win.

QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 9 2010, 16:27) *
timba is that you clap.gif


who?

QUOTE (rhukkas @ Mar 9 2010, 16:42) *
Button is so gentlemanly! Like the way he went behind Honda's back and signed with Williams! Great way to treat your team eh?


Honda was his corporate employer. What's wrong with trying to get the best deal for yourself? There is no obligation to the team. They are a business, lest you forget. Lewis probably forgets that though - I think the day he leaves McLaren will be good for his character.

QUOTE (Grenada @ Mar 9 2010, 17:28) *
This the actual quote from 'Autosport':-



Not sure if that's the whole story but we'll soon find out.


yep, it remains to be seen. What I do know is that Hamilton had several tyre failures in his debut season that were not seen across the rest of the grid. It's marginal, but he definitely canes his tyres. At least in 07. Maybe not now.

Brian O Flaherty
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 17:40) *
I'm talking about drivers going to winning cars. No doubt, the McLaren is a winning car.

When Senna went to Williams, nobody ever said "he'll need a few races to get used to it". Neither did they say that about Prost to Williams. Good drivers have always been able to leap into a fast car and win.

I think people are being polite towards the current WDC by getting any excuses in first. Not in a nasty way but just in a 'maybe this is what happened...' kind of way.

No-one who isn't a fanboy wants to be the one to say that in all probability he's going there to have his ass handed to him on a plate race after race. As it is somehow disrespectful to suggest that will happen to a reigning champion.
fed up
I'm not even sure the current WDC will get into Q3 at Bahrain cool.gif
Buttoneer
QUOTE (Brian O Flaherty @ Mar 9 2010, 16:45) *
No-one who isn't a fanboy wants to be the one to say that in all probability he's going there to have his ass handed to him on a plate race after race. As it is somehow disrespectful to suggest that will happen to a reigning champion.

It's not disrespectful, it's realistic. More than likely, Hamilton will hand Button his arse (as opposed to his donkey). I simply think that it won't be the night-and-day comparison some people are making out.
mclarensmps
QUOTE (fed up @ Mar 9 2010, 11:48) *
I'm not even sure the current WDC will get into Q3 at Bahrain cool.gif


Nah, I don't think it will be that bad.
undersquare
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 16:40) *
What I do know is that Hamilton had several tyre failures in his debut season that were not seen across the rest of the grid. It's marginal, but he definitely canes his tyres. At least in 07. Maybe not now.


That's not going to be much help to Jenson 3 years later, is it? tongue.gif

(anyway it was only a chunk of rubber stuck to his tyre in Turkey and not being called in in China when he was a whole pitstop ahead of FA. Plus the loose wheel in Nurb, I expect you're counting that to make "several" drunk.gif ).
dabrasco
On the topic of tire wear

it says this on Kovalainens wikipedia page

QUOTE
Prior to the Japanese Grand Prix Kovalainen discussed his driving style and the tyre problems in an interview with the Finnish newspaper Turun Sanomat, feeling they had now solved the issues. He explained his driving style was now very close to Hamilton's, as well as his car set-up. Hamilton's aggressive driving style seemed to work the best with the McLaren MP4-23, allowing the tyres to last longer. Hamilton hits the brakes harder and turns the car more quickly into the corner, while Kovalainen's softer driving style would be to drive with a longer curve into the corner, going easier on the brakes and accelerating halfway through the corner. Since the McLaren was harder on the tyres than Renault and the Bridgestones weren't quite as robust as the Michelins, that driving style now led to excessive tyre degradation.


Q & A with McLaren's Jonathan Neale today on Autosport

QUOTE
Q. Can you say yet whether Jenson Button's or Lewis Hamilton's driving style will suit the MP4-25 better?

JN: We're still getting to know Jenson and his preferences on set-up and how we get him dialled in with the car. It's a good question though, who will have the advantage, if any, given the nature of the car and what tyres we take to each race' Lewis is a more aggressive braker and turner of the car so he tries to drive the corners in more of a V-shape.

Jenson is very smooth, which means he carries more momentum in the corners and loads up the car with more lateral G-forces.
Both have the propensity to damage tyres if that's done in an unguarded way. At this stage there's no separate development plan. I don't see anything in the vehicle dynamics package that would cause us to deviate, as we have done in the past. It's early and we'll know more after two or three races.


If I'm not mistaken both are saying almost same thing right?

Might shed some light on the bridgestone report...though to be fair, the car was likely set up better for Lewis on his last Barcelona test day compared to Button on the previous when they just got the upgrades.

for Jenson's sake, lets hope the 25 is much better/different from the 24.... and 23.
Clatter
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 15:13) *
All this BS about getting used to the car. Nobody ever spoke about it until the young guns with zero F1 experience started to race.


This is something that has only become an issue in the last few seasons. Prior to that the drivers were able to do mile after mile of pre-season testing and had plenty of in-season testing as well.
Clatter
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 16:40) *
yep, it remains to be seen. What I do know is that Hamilton had several tyre failures in his debut season that were not seen across the rest of the grid. It's marginal, but he definitely canes his tyres. At least in 07. Maybe not now.


What failures were they?
Brian O Flaherty
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 9 2010, 17:49) *
It's not disrespectful, it's realistic. More than likely, Hamilton will hand Button his arse (as opposed to his donkey). I simply think that it won't be the night-and-day comparison some people are making out.

I agree that it is realistic. But I still think people are (rightly) giving the champion some respect by sugar-coating their predictions.

Though no doubt all hell will break out in here after every single session depending on the order of these 2. Wouldn't wanna be a mod then smoking.gif
Buttoneer
Nor would I rolleyes.gif
rolf123
QUOTE (Brian O Flaherty @ Mar 9 2010, 17:45) *
I think people are being polite towards the current WDC by getting any excuses in first. Not in a nasty way but just in a 'maybe this is what happened...' kind of way.

No-one who isn't a fanboy wants to be the one to say that in all probability he's going there to have his ass handed to him on a plate race after race. As it is somehow disrespectful to suggest that will happen to a reigning champion.


I think some are, yes. Personally I don't think he can have any excuses. The disadvantage of going to a new team (for the driver, not the team) is vastly overstated. Button has no excuses...and he won't need them either.

QUOTE (Clatter @ Mar 9 2010, 17:55) *
This is something that has only become an issue in the last few seasons. Prior to that the drivers were able to do mile after mile of pre-season testing and had plenty of in-season testing as well.


I grant you that. I still think it's an excuse though.
Clatter
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 17:01) *
I grant you that. I still think it's an excuse though.


It's not one Button is using though.
fed up
The devil is in the detail as the saying goes and this one is telling IMO;

QUOTE
JN: We're still getting to know Jenson and his preferences on set-up and how we get him dialled in with the car


If they're still getting to know his preferences at this late stage it doesn't bode well for the early part of the season. Jenson will get stronger as the season unfolds but I think it will be harsh to compare him performances to Lewis.
Arion
QUOTE (Clatter @ Mar 9 2010, 17:09) *
It's not one Button is using though.


"in Lewis' Team", he's been using it from day one.

Grenada
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 9 2010, 16:54) *
On the topic of tire wear

it says this on Kovalainens wikipedia page



Q & A with McLaren's Jonathan Neale today on Autosport



If I'm not mistaken both are saying almost same thing right?

Might shed some light on the bridgestone report...though to be fair, the car was likely set up better for Lewis on his last Barcelona test day compared to Button on the previous when they just got the upgrades.

for Jenson's sake, lets hope the 25 is much better/different from the 24.... and 23.


OT, but the Official Formula One Review Book for 2008 has an in depth technical analysis of the MP4-23 by Paddy Lowe in which he states that Heikki always had problems with the tyres whereas Lewis didn't (I'll get the exact quote tonight). I was quite surprised myself, but it's from the horse's mouth.
Clatter
QUOTE (Arion @ Mar 9 2010, 17:13) *
"in Lewis' Team", he's been using it from day one.


Think you will find that's something that has been brought up by commentators and fans far more than by Button. I don't think he has made any, or is indeed looking for, any excuses.
ex Rhodie racer 2
Many people on here have already written Jenson off before a wheel has turned. Jeez, give the guy a chance to fail first before you accuse him and his supporters of looking for "excuses".
Arion
QUOTE (Clatter @ Mar 9 2010, 17:16) *
Think you will find that's something that has been brought up by commentators and fans far more than by Button. I don't think he has made any, or is indeed looking for, any excuses.


no, I've listened to his interviews, he brought it up even when the interviewer wasn't asking. The "challenge" is not simply racing against Lewis, but "in his environment".

It's pretty clever, he managed to appear to have some big balls while have his excuses ready at the same time.


jjcale
QUOTE (fed up @ Mar 9 2010, 16:48) *
I'm not even sure the current WDC will get into Q3 at Bahrain cool.gif


Its not impossible 12 good cars, 10 places. There's bound to be some "famous tears" in Bahrain. If Macca is only say 3rd or 4th fastest over a lap it is a very real possibility ... even if you would not put money on it.

I am not sure that this year's Macca will suit Bahrain (it seems to suit high speed corners whilst the last few years' cars seemed to suit the slower tracks) so if they both qualify well I will extremely pleased.
mags88
Check out the speed quiz Lewis v Jenson on the McLaren website.

It really shows the differences between the two drivers.

Very interesting smile.gif
FSA
If you read Jonathan Neale's comments, MM are still getting used to working with Jenson. That tells me Hamilton will probably be the faster of the two in quali and races in the first half of the season but that Button will probably come on stronger in the second half. Could be more closely matched over the whole season than many are thinking.
Grenada
QUOTE (mags88 @ Mar 9 2010, 17:47) *
Check out the speed quiz Lewis v Jenson on the McLaren website.

It really shows the differences between the two drivers.

Very interesting smile.gif



Ewwww, Button. Smarmy. Me no likee.
Biggles Flies Undone
I haven't seen any evidence this year that Hamilton is harder on the tyres than Button.
Both have the classic hockey stick type graph shape but Hamilton is more consistent.
It would appear, if anything, that Button's constant radius approach to corning is applying friction to
the tyre for a longer period of time than Hamilton's squaring off of the corner style.



Yorkie
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 9 2010, 09:55) *
DC makes an interesting observation about Buttons move to McLaren. He said that when he moved to Red Bull, McLaren was willing to sell them a steering wheel so DC had a control set he was fully comfortable with. It enables a driver to react instinctively rather than have to think about where the brake bias control (for example) is. Unless Button has been putting serious time into the simulator, he's going to have a hard time getting used to the car itself, and if the drivers are close anyway, this alone might be the edge Hamilton needs.

Ermmm excuses already? wink.gif
Lights
QUOTE (Grenada @ Mar 9 2010, 19:04) *
Ewwww, Button. Smarmy. Me no likee.

Forgive him for having a bit of fun during his 27th PR event of the year.

And let's pray he rethinks the last question in a couple of months.
GoonerLewis
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 9 2010, 16:49) *
It's not disrespectful, it's realistic. More than likely, Hamilton will hand Button his arse (as opposed to his donkey). I simply think that it won't be the night-and-day comparison some people are making out.


Your right it is no way going to be night and day. I just think Hamilton will beat Jenson most races and im not sure how Jenson will react to this. I can't see Jenson staying at Mclaren for 3 years if Lewis is edging him out every season.

Question also has to be asked IF Jenson beats Lewis this year which is possible, how will Lewis react to this? All the hype that is built up around Lewis and for him to be beaten by a fellow Brit in his own team. Its a scary thought for me down.gif

We should get an idea on Friday where each driver is at with the car and agaisnt each other.

Lewis for pole on Sat!!!!!!!
Obi Offiah
I am a little surprised about some of the comments made about Jenson. In my opinion the key point is whether the car will be to Jenson's liking, because if it is, he is going to surprise alot of people with his pace. Lewis will have the advantage when the car becomes difficult to driver. As a poster previously mentioned Lewis seems to be the more adaptable driver, but Mclaren appear to have designed a very good car, so if it handles well I expect Jenson to be right up there in the mix.
Yorkie
QUOTE (Redstorm @ Mar 9 2010, 10:09) *
A question to the Brits here. Is the preference Button v Hammy have anything to do with your location? Is there a regional sect that roots for one or the other?

No plus they both come from the south of england anyways
Yorkie
QUOTE (Don_Humpador @ Mar 9 2010, 11:00) *
Why are we so ready to take them as proof of Button's supposed disadvantage? confused.gif

Also didnt McLaren bring out a new sterring wheel partway through last season which the drivers had to learn?
bourbon
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Mar 9 2010, 17:49) *
It's not disrespectful, it's realistic. More than likely, Hamilton will hand Button his arse (as opposed to his donkey). I simply think that it won't be the night-and-day comparison some people are making out.


Realistic to Hamilton fans maybe - disrespectful to Jensen fans probably.

Hamilton didn't do much better than anyone else, including Jensen, when he had to deal with a crap car last year. And crap McLaren wasn't the same as crap Honda (although seems to me Button got as high as a 3rd place in the dc standings one year and wasn't he 6th or 7th in champ standings with renault before the Alonso incursion?). In any case, McLaren/Ferrari drivers managed 5/6 in final dc standings in 2009, despite the difficulties. That just generally wasn't possible with those Hondas, imo. I really don't think that there is as of yet a fair basis for comparison for Jensen in this light. I think he was in absolute shock last year because he didn't find himself smoking on the side of the road, and eventually it grew pretty amazing - but I think he's adjusted to the notion now.
Yorkie
QUOTE (tkulla @ Mar 9 2010, 11:40) *
I can honestly say that I'm clueless about what will happen on Sunday. It's a great feeling. I've been watching F1 for over 20 years now and I've never had so little feeling for what is going to happen (which doesn't bode well for my Guess the Grid chances, does it?). wink.gif

As far as Lewis and Jenson, I can't be surprised. I think there are a lot of possible outcomes that are reasonable. Lewis could prove that he really is a statistical outlier and have a big edge on Button, and Jenson could prove that he's always been top shelf and just been waiting for cars worthy of his talent by beating Lewis handily. I think it's far more likely that it will be a close battle, but I wouldn't be shocked by such outcomes.

I'm curious how some people on this board would respond if Jenson gets the upper hand. Will it be crickets chirping? Excuses flying? Will the Alonso fans flood the place to gloat? It really could get ugly around here.

I'm a Lewis fan and if Jenson beats Lewis i wont be looking for excuses, but he wont beat him anyways wink.gif
Yorkie
QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 9 2010, 12:03) *
In that scenario, they won't. Alonso could not beat Hamilton, it would be a disaster if Button could, right?

Yes i would think Alonso fans would prefer Lewis to beat Button same as Lewis fans would prefer Alonso to beat Massa, that way it cements both their reputations as being the absolute best
Yorkie
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 9 2010, 12:08) *
dont be naive lol.gif .....they would say its evidence Hamilton was favored in 07 and RD tampered with FA's car

But surely they would do the same so as Lewis can beat Jenson? wink.gif
Yorkie
QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 9 2010, 15:00) *
I would say hats off to Button. I'll possibly say it was an anomaly and see what happens next year. If Button put the manners on Hamilton 2 years in a row. I would say "The King is dead, long live the King" I've always lived by this mantra, "When the facts change I change my mind" Button beating Hamilton would be such a scenario and I would have to drastically change my view and opinion of Button. Conversely if Button gets smashed by Hambone, I hope most of Buttons supporters will take off their hats and admit Lewis is better than they thought and genuinely the real deal.

I wouldnt even give it 2 years, who would have thought that Massa would match Kimi, had to re-evaluate my opinion of both drivers
Yorkie
QUOTE (FSA @ Mar 9 2010, 17:59) *
If you read Jonathan Neale's comments, MM are still getting used to working with Jenson. That tells me Hamilton will probably be the faster of the two in quali and races in the first half of the season but that Button will probably come on stronger in the second half. Could be more closely matched over the whole season than many are thinking.

Theres something that confuses me here, Webber has just gone on record as saying todays cars are a lot easier to drive and its much easier for the new young drivers to make an impression, so why is a 10 year veteran like Button going to struggle in a new team, i don't recall drivers like Senna or Prost ever struggling in new teams.
Clatter
QUOTE (Yorkie @ Mar 9 2010, 21:59) *
Theres something that confuses me here, Webber has just gone on record as saying todays cars are a lot easier to drive and its much easier for the new young drivers to make an impression, so why is a 10 year veteran like Button going to struggle in a new team, i don't recall drivers like Senna or Prost ever struggling in new teams.


Button won't, but don't use drivers from Prost and Senna's era as a comparison. They had the benefit of dozens of tests and no limits on their mileage.
Yorkie
QUOTE (Clatter @ Mar 9 2010, 22:06) *
Button won't, but don't use drivers from Prost and Senna's era as a comparison. They had the benefit of dozens of tests and no limits on their mileage.

Thats the point though despite the limits on testing Webber has said the cars are easier to drive and easier for young drivers to make an impression in
Clatter
QUOTE (Yorkie @ Mar 9 2010, 22:10) *
Thats the point though despite the limits on testing Webber has said the cars are easier to drive and easier for young drivers to make an impression in


I've heard the same sort of thing said almost every season, but as I'm not an F1 driver I can't judge how easy they are too drive. I would say the fact that the cars were all within a few 10th's of each other would make it easier to make an impression. It's only a few seasons ago when most newcomers would have to start out in a car that was several seconds off the pace.
robefc
QUOTE (FSA @ Mar 9 2010, 17:59) *
If you read Jonathan Neale's comments, MM are still getting used to working with Jenson. That tells me Hamilton will probably be the faster of the two in quali and races in the first half of the season but that Button will probably come on stronger in the second half. Could be more closely matched over the whole season than many are thinking.


I actually think it won't be that close because, in my view, hamilton is a better driver and would therefore win by a reasonable margin all things being equal.
If we factor in JB taking half a season to get up to speed then the margin becomes more significant.
BullHead
I think there will be a margin (Lewis>Jenson), but it won't be much and it will close as the season goes on...
Rinehart
QUOTE (rolf123 @ Mar 9 2010, 17:01) *
I grant you that. I still think it's an excuse though.


May I just point out (what might have been forgotten in this thread) that Jenson Button himself has not made any excuses whatsoever about steering wheels/familiarity/status/car set up/etc etc. He is the one with the balls big enough to join McLaren. Lets not confuse what some of his fans are 'preparing for' with what Button isn't saying!

I make no excuses for Button, if he's beaten by Hamilon, that is fair and square and you can quote me on that. I still beleive that Hamilton is marinally quicker, but its close enough for Button to fight. You don't need to be the faster of the 2 to win the WDC - just look at Senna - Prost.

Edit: I'm not saying Button WILL beat Hamilton, but that he MIGHT. Which is different to the majority view that he has no chance.
Rinehart
QUOTE (Arion @ Mar 9 2010, 17:26) *
no, I've listened to his interviews, he brought it up even when the interviewer wasn't asking. The "challenge" is not simply racing against Lewis, but "in his environment".

It's pretty clever, he managed to appear to have some big balls while have his excuses ready at the same time.


Absolute twaddle. He would have needed to finish the sentence with words to the effect of "which gives Lewis and advantage". But he didn't. He was merely describing the situation. That is not an excuse.
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