Well, and at the end of the Gp who was faster?

It's not necessarry to be 25s ahead of somebody if 2s are enough, as long as there are no extra points for every second the leading one is quicker

but lewis said at the end of germany gp they were aloud to turn there engines up and fight it out

It was a bit silly if you ask me, 3 laps, just made Jense go off.

Presumably it was to give Ferrari a helping shove down the hole they'd dug themselves .

With the caveat that a couple of races for either one of these guys where they can show a significant advantage in pace would put them in the top position. For instance, if Button outpaces Hamilton at Spa and Monza and drives away from him in the race (not likely but possible) all of these "slight edge" victories for Lewis in this battle will be meaningless. Unless you score this battle like boxing (like many here do) without even rounds. A knockdown round should be worth much more than a round where one guy barely edges the other. Hungary would have been a bit of a knockdown had Lewis finished, but more because of Button's qualifying debacle than any big edge in race pace.

Well, and at the end of the (german) Gp who was faster?

.....

Fastest laps - (personal best) both lap 65
JB 1.16.451
LH 1.16.503

You make some good points here but unfortunately the ones I have bolded are typical of the assertions / insinuations of Jenson's fans which some find hard to take seriously given the evidence of what we have seen so far.

Lewis has been consistently quicker than Jenson pretty much throughout the season. On BOTH sets of tyres. If you don't agree with that statement of fact your eyes are clouded with fanboyism. There is no way you can explain what we have seen with (I'm paraphrasing): "they've been as quick as each other except for when the temperature was X, or the conditions were Y, and Jenson wasn't able to get his options working". Even the most ardent Jenson apologist, if he had a modicum of knowledge about the way the sport works, would not come up with that as an excuse. Because, if that were the case, it would be easy enough to look at the times and isolate those particular instances and demonstrate the untypical delta between the two drivers' times and correlate it to a particular set of conditions supporting your argument. Whereas any such analysis would simply underscore what we have all seen this season: that Button has been outpaced pretty much everywhere and on both sets of tyres. And even if your excuse were valid - and IMO it's not - it is Jenson's job to make the option tyres work. People can't have it both ways, praising Jenson for his tyre preservation skills and then throwing out his inability to make a particular tyre work as an excuse for lack of pace. It's all part of tyre management, and if what you're saying is correct then it seems that even in that area Lewis has the edge.

The only weekend I can remember when Lewis has not had the edge in pace has been at Hockenheim. In that case, there was an obvious exculpating factor (Lewis' crash in FP1 which caused him to miss virtually the whole of the first two practice sessions). However that crash was obviously Hamilton's fault, so his lack of pace that weekend as a whole I regard as his fault too. Even then Button was not sufficiently quicker in qualifying to ensure that he would be able to press home his advantage on race day and in fact in the race Hamilton managed to finish ahead of him thanks in part to Vettel's move on Alonso impeding Button at the start.

As a Hamilton fan who is happy to give credit where it is due to any other driver, I read "the only times this year that Lewis has been faster than Jenson has been when Jenson hasn't made the option tyre work" as a rather churlish attempt both to deny credit to Hamilton for his outstanding pace and to make an excuse for Button that is really quite unnecessary. Button has never been known to have grid-leading pace, whereas Hamilton has looked as quick as anyone out there right from his very first race. The only guy on the grid for whom those who know the sport well would expect the story of the season in terms of raw pace between Hamilton and Button to have been different is Alonso, and even in that case most of them would probably admit that the Spaniard would be the one trailing on most tracks, if by a smaller margin than Button.

The last few pages of this thread have been pretty amusing and reminded me of something I'd noticed before but never commented on: Jenson's fans tend to be more active between races, and particularly when - as now - there is a significant gap between races. That is when we get all the arcane speculation blaming Hamilton for the mechanic's wheel gun error that cost him 18 points at Barcelona, and implying his two DNFs this season mean he's a car breaker by comparison to Jenson, even though he has the best DNF avoidance record of anyone on the grid. But once the action starts unfolding before our eyes from Friday through Sunday, they have much less to say. I can't wait till Spa; I'll be watching intently to see whether what you're saying is true, and Lewis is only ever quicker when Jenson is having trouble making the options work. I have a funny feeling that during the course of that GP you'll either be backtracking from that statement or making out that Lewis has found a whole new burst of speed that has put paid to your earlier reservations!

In the meantime I expect the next three weeks to provide a feast of speculation that does anything but focus on the action we have seen on track. Because to be honest, we have witnessed a story of one teammate dominating the other so far. It can of course change, but that is what we have seen. Speculating about what Jenson might be able to do on Pirelli tyres next year, or that he would be outpacing Lewis if they were on Michelins is harmless fun, but essentially irrelevant. They are on the same Bridgestones; they have both had the same amount of time to adapt to them. Whoever does the better job with the equipment he has to hand is the better driver. End of. So let's discuss Michelins, Pirellis or whatever when the time comes.

Fastest laps - (personal best) both lap 65
JB 1.16.451
LH 1.16.503

Fastest lap, L65, great selection

I guess you're drawing a discreet veil over L66...

Fastest race laps:

1 5 S. Vettel Red Bull 1:15.824 67
2 8 F. Alonso Ferrari 1:15.880 +0:00.056 +0:00.056 66
3 7 F. Massa Ferrari 1:16.097 +0:00.273 +0:00.217 66
4 1 J. Button McLaren 1:16.451 +0:00.627 +0:00.354 65
5 2 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:16.503 +0:00.679 +0:00.052 65

Did either go quicker on lap 66 ?

So a little over halfway in a season where many said that LH would annihilate JB there is only a points difference of a 5th place or something. If it's sooo wrong to insinuate or imply that JB has some attributes which give him an advantage over LH how can he be so close in the championship?

Because he has gained 30+ points from retirements. Factor those in an Hamilton would be nearly 2 race wins worth of points ahead. The attribute of "has been given the more reliable parts to date by his team" is the reason why the WDC remains so close.

Because he has gained 30+ points from retirements. Factor those in an Hamilton would be nearly 2 race wins worth of points ahead. The attribute of "has been given the more reliable parts to date by his team" is the reason why the WDC remains so close.

Can we factor in a bit of luck for Lewis with penalties this year as well?

Can we factor in a bit of luck for Lewis with penalties this year as well?

And maybe 18 pts gained by deliberately overtaking the safety car

And maybe 18 pts gained by deliberately overtaking the safety car

'fraid not

If you're thinking mainly of the tow-breaking weaving, you have to factor in that once Petrov made a move to actually pass, as opposed to follow, Lewis didn't move on him.

He did get a penalty...

And he was lucky that it took so long.
Is that so hard to accept?

And Jenson, by his own admission, got lucky with some weather calls.

Now. Is that so hard to accept?

And he was lucky that it took so long.
Is that so hard to accept?

He did get a penalty...

And Jenson, by his own admission, got lucky with some weather calls.

Now. Is that so hard to accept?

all the penalties take that "long"...

I'm not. Although what do you think would have happened if he'd done that in 2008?

Oh in 2008 the team would have been dq'd and charged under 151c unless Ron cleared off

That's why 2008 isn't exactly a good reference point.

True, but if he hadn't of overtaken the SC he would have been fighting Fred at the back and maybe overtaken by Kobayashi

And then there is the getting pole position with illegal fuel levels incident.

Passing the SC was only half a second late, perfectly safe, and a good call.

It isn't.
And, as I've said, It wasn't what I was thinking of. That's way down the list after the safety car pass and the pit-lane duel with sv. Either of those could have meant a big points loss on a different day.
He's had some good luck and some bad this year - I don't see why saying that creates such a fuss.

I give up.

Can we factor in a bit of luck for Lewis with penalties this year as well?

Lol, you're not seriously subscribing to the "McLaren favours Jenson" conspiracy theory nonsense I hope. It's funny that the Lewis fans who keep telling us to look at the cold hard facts, keep coming up with fantasy stats to back up their position against the reality of the situation. If this, if that, and MW probably sabotaged Lewis' gearbox.

Fastest laps - (personal best) both lap 65
JB 1.16.451
LH 1.16.503

Wrong. End of.

Let's look at one fact...

Lewis Hamilton 157
Jenson Button 147

So a little over halfway in a season where many said that LH would annihilate JB there is only a points difference of a 5th place or something. If it's sooo wrong to insinuate or imply that JB has some attributes which give him an advantage over LH how can he be so close in the championship?

I am sure you will write an essay in reply using lots of clever words and put downs to ridicule my post wheelbanger but at the end of the day it's only ten points difference so JB must have something going for him and we are quite within our rights to give suggestions on a forum as to what it is.

P.S and the pirelli thing is interesting as well....not worried are you??

Fastest race laps:

1 5 S. Vettel Red Bull 1:15.824 67
2 8 F. Alonso Ferrari 1:15.880 +0:00.056 +0:00.056 66
3 7 F. Massa Ferrari 1:16.097 +0:00.273 +0:00.217 66
4 1 J. Button McLaren 1:16.451 +0:00.627 +0:00.354 65
5 2 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:16.503 +0:00.679 +0:00.052 65

Did either go quicker on lap 66 ?

And maybe 18 pts gained by deliberately overtaking the safety car

Good call

Which is what I was mainly referring to.
Gareth's point is fair btw, Jenson is winning the reliable parts lottery so far.

Laugh all you want.

You're not able to accept that Lewis had a slice of luck in Valencia?
I don't see any chance of a reasonable discussion.

It wasn't luck. It was good judgment plus pace. As I've explained; we could have a reasonable discussion if you'd deal with the specifics.

For example, I've looked at the gaps in the past and seen that from Lap 20 he'd have been ahead by passing the SC and taking the drive-though. So I've mentioned that, and you've just ignored it in favour of making a global rejection "I give up".

So give us your specific arguments about how it was lucky, or stick with the giving up...

No, I'll stick with giving up.

I seem to recall you posting in the past that you won't say anything negative about LH because it'll be picked up by others ('Even u/square says...').
Apologies if I'm confusing you with somebody else.

Edit: Presumably Lewis knew what the penalty for passing the safety car would be...
Sure.

No.
They don't.

That one (safety car) took as long as it did for several reasons - CW didn't refer it immediately because he was involved with the Webber incident... there were lots of other cars going too fast under the safety car (penalties after the race for some, remember)...there was confusion as towhether he'd passed illegaly because they didn't know where the GPS in the safety car was located...the stewards had to request pictures from the helicopter...and probably other reasons that I've forgotten.

Ask FA if that was a normal amount of time. It was unusual, not exceptional, but understandable. And lucky for Lewis.

Well give up then ffs, instead of talking about me.

Or for some reason start on about what Lewis knew...

Sure, it was a great call.
Lewis calculated, while going down the straight, that he could hold up Alonso, pass the safety car, take his penalty (he obviously knew that the pictures wouldn't be immediately available, knew that half the field would be under investigation, knew that Charlie didn't know where the GPS was, knew what the penalty would be and could work out in his head how long it would take the stewards to impose the penalty).
The only gamble was that he was only 99.9% sure KK was going to stay out on his hards and hold JB up, but hey, he's a risk-taker.
All the above proves that he is in fact much cleverer than JB, so we can tick 'strategy' off as another Lewis strength.

Am I mistaken, or was it you who said you'd never criticize LH? I'd say that was relevant.

all that strawman stuff

Laugh all you want.

You're not able to accept that Lewis had a slice of luck in Valencia?
I don't see any chance of a reasonable discussion.

Button not, with his usually sitting duck strategy?

Didn't Button benefit from SC and strategy while trundling around?

Sure, it was a great call.
Lewis calculated, while going down the straight, that he could hold up Alonso, pass the safety car, take his penalty (he obviously knew that the pictures wouldn't be immediately available, knew that half the field would be under investigation, knew that Charlie didn't know where the GPS was, knew what the penalty would be and could work out in his head how long it would take the stewards to impose the penalty).
The only gamble was that he was only 99.9% sure KK was going to stay out on his hards and hold JB up, but hey, he's a risk-taker.
All the above proves that he is in fact much cleverer than JB, so we can tick 'strategy' off as another Lewis strength.

Am I mistaken, or was it you who said you'd never criticize LH? I'd say that was relevant.

Sure, it was a great call.
Lewis calculated, while going down the straight, that he could hold up Alonso, pass the safety car, take his penalty (he obviously knew that the pictures wouldn't be immediately available, knew that half the field would be under investigation, knew that Charlie didn't know where the GPS was, knew what the penalty would be and could work out in his head how long it would take the stewards to impose the penalty).
The only gamble was that he was only 99.9% sure KK was going to stay out on his hards and hold JB up, but hey, he's a risk-taker.
All the above proves that he is in fact much cleverer than JB, so we can tick 'strategy' off as another Lewis strength.

Am I mistaken, or was it you who said you'd never criticize LH? I'd say that was relevant.

Yes.
Of course he benefitted from the safety car.
Strategy? Not sure what you mean.