Well there's no other time he's been dishonest is there? Not that I can think of. And that's in 11 years in F1.

Melbourne 2009? Oh wait, that was the honest teammate.

Do you realize who you're talking to?

Someone with a different opinion to you?

Yes, he was dishonest after being honest to the press straight after the race without thinking about it, but was then pressured into being dishonest by his team manager. He subsequently made a heartfelt apology to the world's press and was clearly ashamed and distraught by the whole thing.

Button in Turkey immediately lied about the target lap times so he is a quicker thinker in this regard.

What is going on with Jenson's engineers?

They said on the BBC that he had a different engineer again for this race, the third since Jakob was taken ill.

Are they going to let everyone have a go?

It's my understanding that it's important for a driver to get a good rapport going with his engineer. I can't see how that's going to happen if Jenson has a different engineer each time.

Where are all your other examples of him lying then?

OK - thanks.

...interesting ... but not a big deal. They are all scounderls and JB is not a particularly big one.

The important question is whether the rest of the team was in on it... and I dont think so (that is why I said it was a mix up as JB thought he could race but this was not the case).

He has been an exceedingly good boy since.... not even attacking LH yesterday despite being within 2.5s for about 20 laps.

My point is, you'll always have a certain idea about Jenson and a completely different one about Lewis, because you're very biased. They could do the same thing and you'd blame Jenson for it while you applaud Lewis. If you want to call that an opinion.. yeah, sure, it's different then mine.

There was the small matter of the hidden fuel tank that he raced with at honda for nigh on two seasons.

I just see it as mysterious. It seems unlikely to me that Jense would tell a flat lie like that. So I'm wondering if there's more to it.

I haven't heard of that. You mean he got his 4th engineer this race?

I doubt it. I think I saw an interview with him saying he'd have the same engineer as in Silverstone, which is his 3rd engineer of the season.

Source please.

Which he of course fitted himself. Is that really the best you can come up with?

That's exactly what I thought when they switched around the engineers at the beginning of the season. They do get a rapport with their engineers - Hamilton has said recently that it has taken a while to get the communication right with AL but it is working well now.

Actual Post-race discussion


Canada (ITV)



So.. was the "They didn’t put a lap time on it" referring to to the race or "about lap 30" ??

Was it conceived lie, a mistake (ie forgotten), or a "paraphrase"(?) or was too much taken meaning taken out the statements?
Edit: Or journalistic garbage from a reporter who doesn't read things properly.

As I remember it he always said he had been given a delta but that it wasnt as slow as Lewis', Lewis was given an unnecessarily slow delta.

Alonso might be advised to hire you to represent him in the future.

So were back to that old chestnut?

Tim Goss said they were given identical lap times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorspor...son-Button.html



http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tomcary...ess-turkish-gp/



It's quite clear.

They were indeed.

The problem was Lewis didn't stick to the delta.

Well IIRC it was almost the first thing Jense said in the room before the podium, "I wasn't told" or something.

Tim Goss was adamant the RE's were told to tell the drivers about the laptime. I think that was the route, rather than Phil Prew or someone telling both of them. So did Jakob tell Jense?

We have Ciaron Pilbeam not passing an instruction on to Webbo. Smedley apologising to Massa. RE's often side with their driver.

Now Jakob has disappeared...

Oh dont worry.. Ill be their defending Lewis if needs be

The problem was Lewis was told to slow down, in addition to the laptime, and when he specifically asked he was told Jenson would not pass him.

It is a sign of the harmony at Macca.... we have to find old things to argue about.

Someone even dragged up the hidden fuel tank at BAR

Regarding the Turkey business, it's possible that Jenson thought that team orders were being applied, didn't like it and decided to ignore it.

If he thought that it was team orders, he would have known that they were illegal, which might account for his initial denial - in other words, he didn't want to get the team into trouble.

But all this is speculation by the uninformed. and in some cases, the prejudiced.

Defending FA is the whole point of his existence.







"witness X" ... geddit.

What on earth?

They were both given the same delta. "Both cars are doing the same"

There was no additional slowing down needed at all and he wasn't told to do so.

Hamilton slowed down too much.

Whether that was because he was told Jenson would not pass him, we'll never know.

But obviously Jenson was not told not to pass him, as that would be a team order. Mistake from the engineers in communication.

Yes mistake by the engineers, most likely. But they were telling Lewis to back off round Turn 8 for the tyres. And the lap time for the overtaking lap was artificially slower for Lewis because of the overtaking itself slowing him through T12/13/14. He wouldn't have done a 1:33 otherwise. So it's not correct to say 'the problem was' Lewis slowing too much. Just saying .

I came into this saying it seems unlikely JB would lie about being given a laptime. So covering for Jakob in Canada looks the likely explanation for the change of story. But then I don't want to believe the team is giving us bull about Jakob being ill either...

Well I guess we'll find out about Jakob eventually.

Yes, the perfect team mate since then

He has a higher "wastage" on engineers than on girls, in former years

Its not down to the drivers to no regs of whot is aloud in the car's. But as drivers and men thye should no that a lie is wrong.

You're right, the laptime was influenced by the overtake itself, but I still think about half of that 2 seconds were due to Lewis's S1 and S2. IIRC, a member here once showed those sectors, but I've no idea when that was.

I'd rather find out about Jakob soon. It's an odd situation. Perhaps I'm nowhere near right but don't team sometimes even give press releases about these things? Or they could at least be clear about it when they're asked.

Yeah the splits showed Lewis was on for a 1:32.x IIRC before the pass. And he'd been doing about 1:30.5's before and keeping Jense at bay. Anyway my belief is Jense did not have a 1:31 to drive to at that time. Didn't know about it.

If it had been Andy Latham off sick I reckon we'd have been hearing about Lewis calling him and stuff like that wouldn't we? So I just dunno.

These lies- well yes it is wrong, but I fail to see why we should think that a racing driver or a racing engineer have got the highest morals of all mankind. Really they are not priests, apostols, saviours whatever. They are just normal people. I'm pretty sure most of us managed to tell a lie or two from time to time. Mostly we do not see them as "lie" but we think we are cleverer than the others or just bend the truth a little bit - for a good cause. Anyway if a racing driver happens to tell a lie I suggest we move on- well, of course the Fans are on even higher morals than all the religious teachers and saints put together. So good to be among so many holly people- I say that I, poor sinner soul...

Regarding Turkey and Jenson: no matter what he said and how he tried to communicate it later- he was trying to find out what is allowed and what is forbidden at McLaren. It's just normal- he is new to the team, he must learn its inner workings. As I have said it is clear that Jenson like being at McLaren, he would like to please them, and doesn't want to upset them when it is not necessary. Trying to find your limits within a new environment -especially if you are a competitive being- is an important, no, a vital task. When you do that with considerable intelligence- like Jenson did! - it is an admirable character trait. Really, Massa, Alonso and Webber are doing the same thing- but without intelligence causing only trouble to their teams.

Maybe the guy himself doesn't want to make it a public knowledge- if I'm ill I would do the same... especially if the illness is serious or of sensitive nature.

Yes, there are things not everybody needs to know
If he's ill for such a long time, it seems to be something serious

Out of intrest whot is your take on Lewis 09 Oz ?

Oh yeah.

Rubbish. The fact of the matter is they were given identical lap times, Button said he wasn't after the race, Hamilton wondered why Button was closing on him but was assured that both cars were on the same fuel saving strategy, and Button sneaked past an unsuspecting Hamilton.

Good explanation

???

What in my post was rubbish? Nothing in that post was rubbish. Did you reply to the correct post?

Jenson's laptimes started to tail off a little bit, his last 4 laps before he pitted were almost identical to Lewis's so he wasnt going to jump Lewis after the stop if they left him out longer


I remember about halfway through the race they told Lewis to save fuel, then towards the end they told him he was ok for fuel and could stop saving

I am just disagreeing with the speculation that Button only overtook because Lewis slowed down too much.

Well as Lewis was about 1 second slower than usual through S1&2, it's not just speculation, it's a fact.

No problem with it, only they should have been a bit more intelligent- try to think before you tell a lie if it is that easy to prove untrue. There I think Lewis managed to convince himself first that really what he said was not a lie. That in reality he did not let Trulli pass because the team said so- it just happened while the team told him to let him do so. Two independent things managed to happen at the very same time- even I'm not sure that the conscious will on Lewis part was entirely there. Anyway later -when the questioning began they managed to create a complete mess out of it. Ryan should have been wise enough to verify their version before going to the investigation, or at least someone should have checked what Lewis told to the press.

BUT- and this is the real answer to your question- even if Lewis lied consciously I have no problem with it. It is not my place to punish him, to send him to Hell or to Heaven. He did, got a punishment, later tried everything to redeem himself. Life goes on.

Pits to Lewis in lap 37/67: "Lewis, we may need to use G8 at the end of the race, anything you can do to conserve a little bit of fuel will help us."
Pits to Lewis in lap 63/67: "Lewis, no need to save any fuel anymore."

They did not tell him to be on fuel-saving mode for those 26 laps. Just that he was on the edge of his fuel-schedule. They told him they might have to use G8, fuel saving mode, at the end of the race, but obviously when that moment arrived they told him there was no need to save fuel. Probably because as they advised him, he conserved a little so it was no longer necessary. Perhaps he short-shifted at certain places a few laps which did the trick.

It was said because Jenson was able to post a faster lap was proof that he was faster

Well that's what Rurouni said. Me and Jeag however replied to another part of your post which we disagreed with. So never mind. Or do you still believe Jenson flew off the track trying to keep up with Lewis?

Singapore