This voters have forgotten to consider factor X at their decission
(plus the factor X DNFs, mistakes, team strategies, miscommunications etc until now, this factor clearly plays into the hands of Button)
I've not voted
but I would vote for Lewis coming out on top, not as clearly as it should have been, but not as close as it is now.

You're right, there's no tin-foil-hat brigade option on there. An unfortunate mistake on the part of the poll creator.

Best performances of Lewis Hamilton in this season so far:
1. Canada - average race position - 1,923
2. Turkey - average race position - 2,137
3. Spain - average race position - 2,250
4. Bahrain - average race position - 4,265
5. China - average race position - 5,089
6. Australia - average race position - 5,517
7. Monaco - average race position - 5,615
8. Malaysia - average race position - 6,285

Average race position of Lewis Hamilton in this year s races so far - 4,137 /3rd overall/

Best performances of Jenson Button in this season so far:
1. China - average race position - 1,410
2. Australia - average race position - 2,586
3. Turkey - average race position - 3,206
4. Canada - average race position - 3,742
5. Spain - average race position - 5,742
6. Bahrain - average race position - 7,428
7. Malaysia - average race position - 9,875
8. Monaco - average race position - 11,000

Average race position of Jenson Button in this year s races so far - 5,623 /4th overall/

Too many ups and downs for Button, I think. Hamilton offers much much more consistency.
The difference between Hamilton and Button in races as a whole is near one and a half position and that is worse then between Rosberg and Schumacher or Alonso and Massa... Only 4 drivers in current field are doing worser in comparison with team mates and that is Buemi, Liuzzi, Hulkenberg and Petrov, who is the "king" in this comparison. Alguersuari, Sutil, Barrichello and Kubica are offering in races so far much better consistency...

Driving style does depend on the car, let's not forget.

I don't know if it's me but in recent years the smoother and wider the lines you drive in a McLaren the more stress you put on the rear tyres.

I do also find it amazing people comment on F1 forums with a very limited knowledge of a particular subject. Had you read a little more into Hamilton's life history you would have saved yourself a whole load of embarrassment.. Then again this post of yours could be complete sarcasm, and if thats the case I apologise in advance..

I was quite confused about this post for a bit until i realised the comma was actually a "point"

My brain hurts

It's not tin-foil-hat stuff; those things clearly happened and they did benefit Button more often than Hamilton. Why be blinded to the facts?

Forget about that tinfoil nonsens-thing
It could have been the other way round, that Button had more problems and bad luck

All I want to say F1 is not very perdictable.
and that people who have voted for Lewis to come out on top are no ignoramuses or biased fanboys

Well Lewis has outpaced Jenson convincingly, 100% as predicted. In the races it's been one way traffic.

People have been pleasantly surprised by the quality of Jense's driving, and amazed by the points table, but those are different things.

Who's Nigel Mansell?

In current F1, there still is a difference, you're right in that. But as you say, it's all relative. There can ofcourse be little differences in how drivers tend to take on curbs, bumps etc., as it's partially related to the vehicle setup. But in general, there is a perfect line that's calculated to be the fastest. The context of this discussion however, was a video of line comparison with Hamilton and Vettel, in which Vettel completely missed the apex. Certain members then concluded from that video that Hamilton's driving style made him able to be quicker in chicane's. That's where I came in.

Absolutely, you cant judge someones style or line from one attempt at one corner.

That I'll agree with!

Makes me feel old tbh, I remember thinking "whos the muppet with the 'tache in the Toleman"

No, it doesn't, but it certainly casts a lot of doubt on the suggestion that Lewis fans were fighting a tide of unreasonable views that the two drivers might somehow be more equal. Peter's assessment is pretty reasonable - 84% thought it was going to be a Lewis win, and only 6% thought it might be close.

I think it casts enough doubt that bauss needs to demonstrate his view of the convention is correct. So far though, Jenson has proved he is better on some tracks. Wet ones.

I agree, except I'm not sure that suggestion was being made.


Nice.

yep, you'd think an avid F1 fan already knows this

you conveniently misrepresent my initial point...great

it has nothing to do with the overall expectation, but track to track

I remember some posters here as65p and some Button fans recently saying Turkey is a great chance for Button to beat Lewis on raw pace as Button is supposed to be great there... there are lots of posts like this... about how Hamilton is not so good in high speed tracks etc etc

So far, this as not been the case



Nope, Jenson has proven he is better with strategy in changeable conditions. Not faster in lap pace on wet tracks

I'm sorry I had no intention of doing this. Perhaps you could explain your point then please, with some links?

You'd think an avid F1 fan knows you can't judge someone's driving style based on 1 corner from 1 lap.

you'd think a reasonable and unantagonistic poster realizes no definitive statements of that kind made when the video was posted

If the format was the same as last year, there would have been an even bigger gap between both drivers. The current "nurse your car for 70 odd laps" format plays heavily on Jenson's strengths.

Not quite. Jenson has done 100% better than most people, including your noble self, have predicted.





Ah, the man is making amends.
But those are different things...

after the piststop and your in front you just have to keep the guy behind you and its a lot easyer than in the past there is no need anymore to push
because the guy behind you also have to look after his tyres fuel and so on

Prove that.

You got me there, but then why on earth did you post the video, as it had nothing to do with the analysis beside it?

You posted it as an example to show Lewis's skill of "good judgement of optimal time to break and accelerate when attacking a corner". I confused that with the driving style sentence above, but my point still remains, why is that video anything close to valuable when discussing subjects like this? You act smart, yet you use video's like this to prove your point? Doesn't make sense.

it was just that..."good judgement of optimal time to break and accelerate when attacking a corner", an illustration about how to take a corner/ride chicanes visually compared with how not to do it.
Not that this is why Lewis is better than Seb...or Seb always takes the corner this way.

And its not redundant, because there are always slightly diff. lines n braking points taken by drivers in attacking double chicanes like that which either lead to similar laptimes or slight differences ( which is where top drivers gain a few hundredth or so over others)

Once again it was not a 'this is why Lewis is better than Seb' argument... no one mentioned anything like that.

Ah well, it's very easy to get drawn into discussing members' predictions and expectations, instead of the drivers' driving .

Anyway I'm delighted with Jenson this year, McLaren is so right for him, and he and Lewis have got along so well. I've happily confessed to underestimating him already.

But when it comes to predicting how the rest of the season will go, against Lewis, the first 8 races tell us Jense will have to live off those 2 wins, barring some more of the unexpected.

Easy.
Sprint races are raced more like 70 quali laps than a "nursing contest". Thus, pure pace becomes even more important.
Button's pure pace << Hamilton's (both quali and race pace, from 2010 and even before)

Thus...

With Sprint Race Format:
Hamilton >>> Button.
Best example? Montreal 2010. Hamilton could have run away with it at the end if it were a sprint race. He had a couple of tenths in the bag but had to nurse the machinery.

Problem is, you know nothing of that, you're just guessing and the try to sell your guesses as facts.

The times on Lap 62 make it fact, as near as we need.

It has never been possible to "sprint" the whole of a F1 race, you always had to look after the car to some extent.



One lap never proved anything

... as most of us here, actually. My "guesses" are based on facts, though.

Hamilton's race pace has been superior to Jenson in every dry race so far. Nothing at all this season suggests the opposite.

Try harder, buddy. Everybody knows your agenda.

What about the radio communication from the team saying basically "We know you got pace. Nurse your car instead"?

Of course it has, very often.

Look who's talking

Anyway, now you admitted to guessing, fine with me.

Oh, I'm sure it's close enough for you.

Rewatch the last 10 laps of Canada.

The only question is whether that advantage is Canada specific.

Well, exactly, that's very much in question. Therefore to use one race, or even one lap from one race, to claim as prove for:



is bollocks.

Well you're sure about all sorts of things, but history shows that's not much of a guide for anybody else

And in this case, to support the idea that Hamilton had pace to spare over Button at the end of Canada, one lap when they were both in clear air and one was a second faster than the other is good enough for anybody. Well, anybody bar one or two exceptions, obviously.

Don;t be a idiot. Button used all the life of his tyres chasing alonso (who was lapping same as hammy) so button was closing on him and used his tyre life much more.
Hammy had enough time upfront to control alonso and his tyres. I have no doubt jenson and hammy were very even matched in race conditions -just they had different points in the race to use the tyre and left them unable to match the other who was in better shape as they didn't have to push as hard.
we will never know that its just your opinion mate

So as65p, your honest objective assessment - who has been the faster driver this year?

Prove it, then.

Still don't get it, eh? My point is precisely that there's no prove. Certainly not for the claim that Button would be further behind had they met last season.

It is, isn´t it?
Truth is, I am just missing giacomo who has been an excellent sparring partner with his dry wit, and you fit the bill quite well....



Fair enough. Aren´t we all surprised - even some ardent Jenson fans? And I am happy for him - Jenson had some dire years with all his "transfer-gates".




We´ll see about that. Conventional wisdom says yes indeed. Still I can imagine Jenson will even bring more to the fore. At least I hope so. It is to the good of Lewis as well, isn´t it? Jenson as teammate is a much better motivator than Heikki has been, nice chap though Kovy is.

Well that's the funny bit: Hamilton, IMO. But not constantly, and by less than even I expected, certainly by much less than a substantial fraction of Hamilton supporters so boldly predicted in that poll and on the first pages of this thread.

Interestingly now that Hamilton has a bit of run in the last weeks, that same over-enthusiastic spirit is raising it's head once again, Button once again declared a beaten man and shattered to pieces.

I said it before, this thread is bound to follow the lead of the McLaren thread, mood-swinging fun guarantueed

Seconded

That old chestnut. Tell you what, why don't you live up to the high standards implied by your post and warn us in advance withe each subsequent contribution to this thread whether you're 'guessing' or 'facting'.

Cool. You know it's always boiling hot or icy cold here, never nice and comfortable.

I am impressed with Button. He seems to have stepped up his game and risen to the occasion. I suspect that this is the hardest he has worked in a season.

Win or lose, luck or no luck he can be very happy with his season so far and the decision to leave Brawn.

Well I wouldn't try to fill Giacomo's shoes but I am generally up for a bit of good-natured sparring as you know .

Jense has earned his time in the sun, for sure. However the pressure is coming on now. The good fortune he rode so well has been and gone, and Lewis is communicating better with his engineer now, in fact I was pleased to here "mate" a few times over the radio in Canada.

So now Jense has to face Hammy on the same number of stops. That means results like Bahrain (-4 places) Sepang (-2) Barca (-4) Monaco (-5 probably) Turkey and Canada (-1,-1). Better than Kovy, definitely, but still domination.