Looks pretty much that way. The V nose starts and ends slightly differently but the rest looks very similar.


F2004 and Sauber were similar as well, which was allowed to race on,... so what is the proof now that these two cars are identical? in which way? RB Tech owns IP, and STR uses different mechanical drive train?

The ´04 Sauber and the F-2003GA was the exact same car, not just similar.

To put everything into perspective so far..

Last winter they did that one fast time with Vettel that was very very quick, at Jerez I think.. it was very early on and in those same tests Renault did quick stints as were seen as a being quite quick. In the final Barcelona test it was seen that Brawn was easily quickest (if they weren't playing with ballast for sponsors) and that Ferrari were second. McLaren were way off. And that Toyota would be somewhere near the front. After all the winter tests Alonso made a Spanish interview and people here translated and posted the youtube video. His order had Renault ahead of Redbull (4th, 5th, 6th etc) but he thought that there was only 2 tenths between all the top and midfield teams to that it would be easy to make up ground. In the final winter testing prediction thread no one had Redbull in the top 3 or 4 except maybe some Redbull fans.

So they did 1 short stint early on in Jerez.. then in Melbourne these are the results..

FP1
WEB - P17
VET - P20

FP2
WEB - P4
VET - P8

FP3
WEB - P7
VET - P13

Q1
WEB - P3
VET - P9

Q2
VET - P3
WEB - P6

Q3
VET - P3
WEB - P8

Kubica and Rosberg had virtually identical times with Vettel in Q2. Toyota's got DQ'd, so there times don't show up on F1.com results. If you remember in the race Vettel was able to stay quite close to Button until the final stint on the softer tyre. Brawn said they were controlling the pace though.

Redbull were very quiet in the press in winter 09. Looking back, you can say they wanted the results on the board before bragging or putting pressure on themselves.

This season it's been completely different, in terms of press. Webber the other day in F1.com interview predicted 1-2 in Bahrain, with Alonso 3rd. Could have been wishful thinking but there is an air of confidence in the team. Horner says they aim for the championships. Vettel says he aims for wins and the championships. Webber after the first few days said the car was a good base to work with, that there are no surprises. Everything is as they expected according to him and the team.

Biggest concern in my opinion is the weather. The car could be the best, but unless they can get testing miles and develop knowledge with tyre wear and setup it could be a few races until they can start to hit their stride like McLaren in 2005. The more testing days that are wet, the more it introduces luck and lottery conditions for the early races. As each team learns more, the better cars will float towards the front. We always see surprises at the start of every season that drift back as the season goes on. Last year it was Toyota and Williams. But for Redbull dry testing is even more important because they skipped the first one already and there is already such a small number of tests. The next Jerez test (2nd last test) is predicted to be very wet. Which only leaves the final Barcelona test.

I didn't understand that as a prediction but more as how he would like to start the season. The only thing it really implies is, that he obviously thinks Ferrari and especially Alonso are looking like the strongest competitors. That or he has some strange sympathy for the Spaniard, lol.

There's not much to conclude from testing yet though. Of course the press pays the team more attention as they were runner up. If I remember correctly Mark was pretty confident last year too. The goal back then was to grab first pole and win for the team. And the confidence was not wishful thinking after all. Now the goal is to be a championship contender again for both drivers as well as the team. Hopefully the confidence is a reasonable judgement again.

The timer on the main page says 27 days, 13 hours, 32 minutes and one race distance until we know.

You blokes have short memories, RBR rolled the chassis off the truck, blew everyone away at Jerez (before brawn arrived) then realised they were fast and kept a low profile for the rest of testing.

One of the great myths of F1 is that testing is not representative, there are some great examples of teams being stupoid but on the vast, vast majority of occassions testing is bang on the mark if you've been following it closely.

In that case what happened with Toyota? Considering how many times they topped the sheeta.

If memory serves me correctly, Redbull's fastest testing times seemed to coincide with track visits by Mr Mateschitz.

I understand he'll be in Barcelona.

Perhaps we'll glimpse their real speed there?

They started the season fine, a better team wpould have won a race with those cars. They then fell behind in the development race.

Spot on. During the begining of the season they were always up there interms of speed, but then fell behind when everyone else out developed them.

I can also remember Redbull starting their testing program with some really quick times.

The only thing that didnt add up from 2009 pre season testing was Ferrari's pace.

Alfisti since you understand testing so well instead of insulting everyone care to make a prediction on RBRs pace this year? Apparently they showed pretty strong stint times but I was kind of hoping for some quicker outright pace so far.

... by discounting unballasted media laps. This year may be a little easier - hards should be full fuel runs and softs on 1/3 fuel.....although for sponsor support (which a few teams need) they might be running a little lighter than that.....and with about 50Kg less fuel and about 30 Kg less ballast single lap times won't mean anything.
Long runs are the only place to be looking....as they always have been.

Here is some thoughts on testing so far and a rare unbiased article from PF1.

http://planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5948775,00.html

And a quote from Vettel on Allen's Blog.

“This car is not just a step forward on the ‘numbers’ but also in driveability, ” he said. “The balance is as it was last year, but the grip in the high speed corners is better.”

The tub is defined by the regulations, as FIA have done for many seasons. For example it is probably not allowable to have driver sitting in 70s style upright position, with side mounted airbox to meet the modern low maximum height as bodywork is banned outside of the central airbox intake area. Also low noses for example are banned as well... no bodywork allowed there, wouldn't have been well accepted if amended to the rules at scrutineering of the first race if 85 season!

Of course the FIA rules are usually sloppy, but the rules have usually had some role in the shape of the cars in any particular season. The bodywork is not identical, please look closely. The sidepods are smoother and less tapered on the Red Bull IMO.

Scary huh!?

The car was a monster through the highspeed anyway! Cant imagine what its like now!

You must be confusing something. At the first test in Feb 09 they didn't blow away anyone. Only on Mar 1 did Sebastian do one media lap, which they did not repeat for the rest of testing in 09. Probably that was they day when Mateschitz was at the track.

Reliability will be key for RB6.

Is it?


Care to provide me more info?

Considering what they have done with the diffuser I would expect it to be so - let's hope it is also a lot better in the tighter twisty stuff...




Yep.

Sauber got the '03 Ferrari because they agreed to put Massa in one of their cars (his second spell with the team), as a continuation of his "education." They got the "basic" car though. I remember they didn't install power steering for instance, before the fourth or fifth race of the season.
But this isn't for this thread. =)

I agree with Alfisti; if you know how to read testing, it'll give you a pretty good idea about the pecking order. Always has. The exception might be this year though, it'll certainly be more difficult than before, even if we get stint-times. (I'll be relying more on drivers comments and Allen's updates)
The biggest mistakes people do, again and again shockingly, is paying attention to only the fastest times.

Gary Anderson gives the RB6 a pretty good wrap here: http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2633

Alot of talk about the RB6 geared towards more consistant downforce than outright peak downforce like the McLaren might be.

Wow that's a scary prospect the RB6 being quicker in the high speed corners than the RB5! One can imagine the g-forces that car will be able to pull.
Last year during the Turkish Grand Prix when RBR had a make shift Double Deck Diffuser(debuted in Monaco) the car through turn 8 was something else, I saw at one time during the Grand Prix Vettel went through Turn 8 @ 275.4km/h with a basic DDD
Imagine what they'll be able to do now with their monster diffuser, it's going to be a sight to behold. Also lets hope they've improved their mechanical grip so they don't suffer at tracks such as Monaco(like last year) here's hoping!

Apparently a photographer made a photo of his notebook. One of the notes read "Dallara preparations".
They think Willis is somehow involved (by FIA, FOM or FOTA?) in helping Campos/Dallara to make the grid.

It's too early so far and they've had little dry running. I think it's fair to say that you are looking at Ferrari, McLaren and maybe RBR fighting for it this year. I don't think Merc has it TBH, Sauber an unknown but it would not surprise me to see them quick, BMW were the sleeper in the last third of last season, they need better drivers though.

Better photo of the notepad

Geoff Willis dallara

IMO tyres will be the biggest factor this year ... (but then I often think that).

People here do have short memories about testing as a predictor. Here's a quote:


The best car of the modern era was not fast until a very late test, and there were no other F1 cars there that day.

The issue about testing is what knowledge commentators have to evaluate the times. They don't know the fuel levels, the car weight, the wing settings, the ballast balance, the aero kit itself, the gearbox rations, the engine revs & engine power settings, or information about the tyres such as condition and air pressures. With such information, things would be much easier to guess. But even then, a car at one track is often much slower than at another track. For people who think testing reveals all, consider alone just that last fact.

Good stint

1 1:23.551
2 1:24.010 +0.459
3 1:33.147 +9.137
4 1:24.044 -9.103
5 1:23.973 -0.071
6 1:23.991 +0.018
7 1:23.737 -0.254
8 1:30.503 +6.766
9 1:24.778 -5.725
10 1:23.461 -1.317
11 1:23.838 +0.377
12 1:23.440 -0.398
13 1:23.630 +0.19
14 1:24.593 +0.963
15 1:24.675 +0.082
16 1:23.834 -0.841
17 1:34.010 +10.176
18 1:25.087 -8.923
19 1:23.221 -1.866
20 1:28.396 +5.175
21 1:23.753 -4.643
22 1:37.941 +14.188
23 1:23.708 -14.233
24 1:23.375 -0.333

Being first in testing beats being behind. The RB6 should not be a lemon, but so far it is impossible to say just how good it is.

H2H

Thanks for those laptimes Flashmaster. Is there anything to compare it to though? Is there a link with other teams stint times?

Good post.

Here is a link from winter last year. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/03/13/who-...rank-the-teams/

Have a look at the replies at the bottom for the readers lists of the teams pace. Redbull isn't in the top 3 for any of them. May as well pick the team names out of a hat.

There is alot more to it then just fuel load. BMW did strong long run stints in final Barcelona test. Brawn set their blistering pace in winter temperatures only to later in the season complain about "heating the tyre issues" and some races in these cold temperatures were lucky to get many points. By the time the race got to Barcelona, BMW were nowhere. Who knows.

Good example.

BMW number 1 haha.

Quick question...

I heard Martin Whitmarsh saying last year something along the lines of... the end plates were a major problem on the car and a big downforce point to be gained.. or something along those lines, which seemed highly credible when looking at the brawn's end plates and their success. McLaren added ones of little complexity and became a front runner again.. and tested but didnt run even more complex end plates which have since been released on the mp4-25. This is also due to the more complex front wing but whitmarsh himself said the end plates were a big problem too.

My question, why would Newey keep such a simple end plate design on the RB5 all season? you may say because the car was clearly quick without them but surely exploring a more detailed endplate wouldnt have hurt and could of pulled a bigger lead out on the opposition, agree? or maybe they just wouldnt work with the car? and also why wouldn't they go for more complexity on the RB6?

RB5..


BGP 001


MP4-24 after small change


Mp4-25


RB6
http://www.vivelaf1.com/wp-content/uploads...tel_redbull.jpg

You may look at this as a stupid question but i think it's fair

RB5?


Good Q tho.

ooh crap sorry, was so busy looking for a small image for the forum that i just thought, i'll just post a link instead and didnt notice what i was actually linking haha

i'll get a new image..

RB6...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uplo..._20100217-6.jpg

Just because Mclaren had quite a bit of room for improvement in this area doesn't mean that all the other teams did, too.

The Red Bull might have had endplates perfectly optimized for the rest of the package.


Because complexity doesn't automatically = faster?

thanks a lot, thats what i thought you might say but i guessed it was best to ask

Excellent post

Now a shock and a change from that excellence and a requirement to prepare BS-detectors -> mediocre speculative reply ahead:

Maybe the advantage of the RB5/6 is some sort of better attachment of the flow, due to the properly selected gradient and shaping of the surfaces of the car in critical areas - the shape of the car does seem lacking in the add-on bits of some of the others, almost Lotus like. Yet the downfroce is HUUGGGEEE. For example, the tiniest different in the shape of an aeroplane airfoil (there are thousands of airfoils in catalogues plus they can be custom designed using mathematics) at some location can make a large difference to it's optimum performance and range where it gets this performance, maybe it is a similar kind of thing with the RBR.Thus it must be presumably ;) that the RBR generates mega downforce efficiently, now if you already make mega downforce efficiently why would you want to make mega downforce mega inefficiently and be just like the others -> scrapping and never as good as the mighty RBR in fast corners ... nope the RBR concept is better but the other teams are incapable of replicating it's much more hidden secrets so they go with the elaborate Brawn way IMO...

wow, great reply, this is quite hard to get my head around but what your saying seems to make sense

As you probably know, the Jerez spec 2010 cars are not necessarily the Race 1 spec cars. wait till Bahrain, or even Test 4 next week before making judgements on Neweys design decisions

The team is already testing a different wing. But the endplates are basically the same as they were in Abu Dhabi last year. So far I can only see a change in cascade wing size. The new ones are smaller. The reason I don't know of course, but I assume it might have to do with changed aero-balance or another attempt to increase the amount of clean air between the front wheels.

Anyways, car looks good so far. Hopefully Mark gets a bit more dry track than poor Seb. That should make those long runs a lot more consistent. Only 3 weeks, 2 days and a couple of hours to go for Bahrain.

from Joe Saward's Blog today

"Down at Red Bull I hear that, off the record, they are a little disappointed with the pace of the new car. That does not mean it is slow, it simply means that there was not as big a leap forward as had been hoped. Mercedes GP will be OK but it is not sensational. The Ferrari is definitely a fast car, but people keep telling me that it is in trouble with fuel consumption over race distances. Force India seem to be happy that the new car is a step closer to the guys at the front while the general consensus (rightly or wrongly) is that Sauber and Toro Rosso are playing to the peanut gallery a little with their lap times, as both would like to find more money. Renault is not saying much but will probably not be anything more than solid."



it is saward though...

I am in the 'more to aerodynamics than first meets the eye' camp.

I think V8F is on the right track. It is about the performance of the whole, and it is certainly an example of the adage that 'the whole is more than the sum of the parts'.

I am sure AN & co have looked at these complex shapes, and either left them on the shelf as 'not needed', or decided that they are a hindrance and not a help, and binned them.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/r...z-developments/

Interesting...but through their low key press releases and cautious comments etc etc last year they conveyed similar sentiment regarding the cars speed and the thing was very sharp off the bat - which i suspected given the comments of the other drivers. Think the same thing is happening again this year and the thing is v. quick and will be at the front early. I think we all know RB are typically conservative when it comes to practice and testing, and they have two drivers who can reach the limit very quickly and dont need to work up to it by turning more quicker lower fuel times/runs which often mask's their true pace. I reckon they're running the thing like a gas tanker and with very little full noise engine runs tbh. Guess we'll soon see.

With the amount of rain that has fallen and interrupted testing so far - I'm surprised that anyone has enough data to actually be disappointed.

It's true it's hard to draw any conclusions at all. Vettel's got a new autosport interview and it seems everyone has a hard job figuring where they are right now, especially with all the rain.





To me McLaren could be the fastest car out there. It finished the season strong, we saw how quickly they developed last season and now they have a clean slate for a new design. If the Williams are on par with McLaren in terms of speed I'd be shocked. It's even worse that he says this on the same day that Williams tops the sheets.

Yeah, the RB6 will be up there, but it's gonna be a hard fight IMO. The Macca and Ferrari look to have the edge just now... by a small amount.

I'm not surprised the endplates arent changed much. The teams found out last year with the full width front wings, the endplates were better used to push the air around the outside of the tyres as opposed to channeling it between them like they had been before, which means in that respect the narrower tyres wont have much of an effect.

Webber lap times from today, if anyone is interested

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1355628/Webber%20Laps.txt


I've also got Alonso, Button and Schumacher (+ Webber)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1355628/Testing%2019_02_10.zip

Edit: Don't know now though... Something showing now this round. Maybe Ferrari & Red Bull with that edge. Good!