I don't think it would be a huge issue. I think he's more focused on securing this championship, and ensuring the team will remain a power in F1 and not slip back like Renault.

Dietrich (in my opinion) isn't backing Vettel or Webber over the other. I'm sure if he had to choose one, he'd probably side with Vettel, but if Webber won, I can safely say he wouldn't be disappointed because it wasn't vettel.

He has backed Mark since he joined. And it's easy to see this when you see the support Mark got from Red Bull after he broke his leg and shoulder. I think Dietrich Mateschitz will be loving what is happening at Red Bull.

I'm sure every F1 Fan has talked about Red Bull in the past week, which would translate to the company moving more product. He isn't thinking like a racing team owner, he's thinking like a company owner (imo)

I agree with your first point.

I disagree with your second w.r.t. 'loving what is happening.' Partly because it makes the team look stupid, i.e. the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. After spending lots of money buying an F1 team and plastering it with logos, I think he'd be annoyed if he couldn't fully 'cash in' on success if his WDC was driving for another team in 2011.

How much would it cost Dietrich to fire Webber now? Put in Heidfeld as a proper #2 plodder and give Vettel 100% support?

I'm just wondering my McLaren-Honda didn't do the same thing to Prost in 1989. If one of your drivers is leading the WDC and has already signed for another team....then fire him before the end of the season...guaranteeing victory to your preferred driver!

If an F1 engineer signs for another team, he's immediately put on gardening leave and is often not allowed in the factory, let alone near the car. Strange how this has never applied to drivers.

1) - If 2) occurs he still has a championship title - 3) doesn't matter - he fell out with Marko years ago, and I think you'll find Red Bull would be happy to spend an awful lot of money on lawyers to ensure the obligation of the 2011 contract were fulfilled if he wins the WDC.

Interesting thoughts. Which is why everyone should settle down - lay out some ground rules and get on with the rest of the season. Winning a GP and coming away from a weekend having the media criticise your schoolyard politics rather than praise the fact that the team won it's "home" GP - isn't good for the team - at any level.

Bad publicity is still publicity non the less.

He probably isn't happy the team isn't sitting on top where it could be (should be?)

I don't think alot of people are out to get Vettel and I blame alot of it on RBR management, but I think a few times he has behaved a bit immaturely and arrogantly this year such as running into Mark in Turkey and the whole crazy gesturing for which he never admitted he was even party at fault even with the tide of overwhelming support from the F1 community of Mark over the crash. I mean we could argue all day about the Turkey incident but at the end of the day Seb ran into Mark, not the other way around. I just think he needs to be a bit more humble and sometimes accept blame for things instead of making excuses. Plus the whole finger pointing gets on peoples nerves as well. he even said this week he treats people with respect but forgets the whole Turkey incident. He is a very good driver no doubt but I think he needs to mature a bit more and think about some of the things he does.

That's exactly what I'm saying but mate.

When has he acted arrogantly apart from that. He's literally done very little wrong this season. He had one hiccup, and everyone think's he's this stuck up german poster boy that needs nothing but criticism.

Think of one instance other than Turkey where he's done something wrong.

Because I can't, and that's why I'm not on the 'antagonising Vettel' bandwagon.

EDIT* On a side note, I'm pretty certain arrogant falls into the job description of an F1 Driver, you've basically got to be the most cocky, arrogant S.O.B. if you want to make it in the sport in the first place, don't you?

I certainly do not think it was anything insidious on the part of CH, it was merely an exposure of his inability to think through the full effects of his decision, and consequently modify his initial thoughts with a more reasonable solution. One that would not have looked so blatantly like favouritism considering the grief they got after Turkey.

agree. fastest laps total doesn't mean jack just shows that webber dominated when out in front and was relatively unchallenged due to reliabilty/traffic etc so it's a little pointless.

Yeah the Turkey thing was a bit of a brain fade for Seb. I guess its a combination of different things that are affecting his public perception. In particular the constant RBR coddling and seeming to favour him with the Turkey incident and the front wing at Silverstone hasn't gone down with the general F1 community and especially Webber fans. I agree that arrogance in F1 can get you far ala Schumacher, but on the other hand look at fair and well respected drivers such as Hakkinen being great too. Hopefully alot of it is down to immaturity too which he will grow out of. I just think that things will be better for him if RBR treat both drivers equally and fairly and that Seb is a bit more humble and admits blame a bit more when he has done something wrong because so far this year I can't recall if he has admitted any fault for any incidents? Anyway it will be very interesting to see how things pan out and if RBR give priority to Mark at Germany following Horners comments regarding the team driver ahead in the WDC.

Had this incident never happened, not a chance, but now that they are under the microscope, suddenly (for this race because people will forget with the summer shutdown), wonderful things happen. By Spa, not a chance, whether or not Webber's leading...

So getting out in front and dominating a race doesnt mean anything?

Guess Schumacher was wasting his time all those years dominating from the front and winning all those championships.

yeah hard to say. I can see why Mark has raised the fair treatment issue in public maybe to try and get some action from RBR and let people know how he feels. Then again it could have been more down to larrikin aussie sarcasm with the whole 'Not bad for a no2 driver' as well, I mean alot of people don't get us Aussies at the best of times LOL. Behaviour like that tho and there is a chance it could backfire but I guess he felt he had no other option considering all this was supposed to have been sorted after Turkey. RBR bang on about equality and not favouring one driver but boy they have made some silly calls this year that look very much like favouring Seb. I hope they just let both guys fight it out fairly, I mean it can't get much worse than what has happened so far this season. Like you im still suspicious for the rest of the year. I mean its very easy to do some underhanded stuff in the background and get away with it like dodgy pit calls etc, but hopefully now we will see a change for the better all round. RBR can't afford any more huge PR disasters if they want to win the WDC and be regarded as a great team. Roll on Germany and let the best guy win! FAIRLY of course!!

Gowebber,

Before I say anything else, I'm from Aus, and Webber is my favourite driver.

Now, what my opinion is, is that Sebastian isn't a spoilt and immature driver.

HE hasn't done anything wrong in terms of being a driver EDIT* Apart from Turkey of course *EDIT. All the problems are with Red Bull management, and somehow, the general public has found away to give Vettel all the blame.

What I don't understand is how the public has deduced that because Red Bull want to Favour Vettel, it becomes Vettel's fault, and that makes him immature.

Sorry, but I just don't see how you can draw a line like that, and throw the blame onto Vettel, considering he's making the best of his situation, as ANY of the F1 drivers at present would.

I'd bet money that if this was happening at McLaren (not saying it is, McLaren fans please don't flame the shit out of me) and Lewis Hamilton got given preference for being on top of the driver's standings, noone would be raging about him being an immature kid, or calling him the names i've heard Vettel being called.

I wonder why that is...

Good to hear from another Aussie and Webber supporter. I guess we will have to agree to disagree eh. I do agree though about RBR management not helping with his public perception at the moment. I disagree though in the fact you feel he hasn't done anything wrong. I think he doesn't help himself sometimes in the way he acts, which may be attributed quite a bit to immaturity. The Turkey incident and Silverstone have both stood out as being in Seb's favour and it hasn't gone down well. The other thing is he appears very cocky and with the whole finger waving and crazy gesturing has rubbed a few people up the wrong way. Then you have to add to not admitting blame for issues that arise such as the Turkey crash or the bad start at Silverstone being all down to clutch settings etc rather than mistakes in his driving. Just being more humble and admitting fault more often and I think that would help alot with how people view him. Anyway thats how I have formed my opinion of him so far. Still think hes talented though.

He hasn't done himself any favors, things like the 'crazy' finger after the Turkey incident and running back to the pits for a hug don't exactly scream maturity to me..

i'll try and tell you why that is...


we haven't seen lewis try and drive people into the pit garages?

we haven't seen lewis drive into his team mate and then signal that he's crazy when we all know whose fault that was?

we haven't heard lewis make comments like, 'lewis achieved what he couldn't in valencia' (regarding the vettel incident)?

and he acts cocky and arrogent like gowebber mentioned...

just my opinion

Look more closely at the table, - in particular at the races Mark didn't win.

Then look at the races Seb won and those he didn't win.

There's a trend...

It's nowhere near as simple as just "dominating when out in front".

LOL i cant believe people on this forum think that having fastest laps doesnt mean anything.....like holy shit are you guys for real? being the fastest over 90mins generally means you stand at the top step of the podium come sunday afternoon. Having fastest laps means well...you were the fastest and gave yourself the best chance of winning. Keep living in denial if you want but i'd give anything to have the most fastest laps on track day.

Also the reason people are bashing Vettel is the way he handled himself after the incident at Turkey, everything else is RBR managements fault.

Webber speaks ...

All is sweetness and light is seems

Not exactly a surprise, you can't try to fight for a title while being publicly at odds with your team. Whether things are really that simple behind the scenes, well that is another story.

I think the damage has been done anyway to be honest, regardless of what really happened in Turkey and Silverstone, Red Bull simply cannot be seen to favour Vettel again, and they know it.

Perhaps when his technical chief and then team boss went for the arm around the shoulder he should have shown his manliness by judo-throwing them onto the pit lane?

Heh, guess so, Us aussies need to stick together mate


Brandz07, Ben Wilson, Go Webber.

I understand where you're all coming from.

But you've all said the same thing. He had one moment, where he gestured something he shouldn't have in the heat of the moment, we've seen driver's fight, swear and point fingers when the adrenalin is flowing, and I don't think any of them have copped the amount of crap that Vettel has.

He ran back to the pits after Turkey and shook hands with Newey, Webber's race engineer and Horner (might I add, he looked very apologetic) and I fail to see how that's a problem with immaturity. The Immature thing to do there is to sit in the garage and sulk about it, which he didn't. He talked to the media and his team immediately after. He gave a clear and concise picture of what he thought happened, and to me, that seems fair enough.

Brandz,

Hamilton drove into Vettel in Valencia, and Hamilton is known for aggresive driving, he's the same age, he complains constantly about his car when he's racing, or when a decision is made that doesn't go his way.

In regards to Vettel commenting on Hamilton running into him, he was clearly joking, I fail to see how that is arrogant?

I've seen hamilton make aggressive passes on numerous occasions, yet somehow, he manages to be a big favourite with the fans, which is fine. I'm not insulting Hamilton, I think he's one of the best driver's on the grid, but again, Vettel has made ONE Mistake this season...and he is perceived as cocky and arrogant.

Link me an interview, or any evidence you can to back up why you think he is arrogant and cocky, APART from Turkey.

Sorry boys, I just can't see why he's getting all this crap go his way. It's completely unjustified. IMO.

It's unjustified but not unexplained. It's quite natural that fans don't like a teammate beating their driver. Heidfeld is one of the nicest guys in the paddock and never put a foot wrong in his dealings with Mark, but received a similar treatment from some bitter Webber fans on this forum.

BTW No I am not saying Heidfeld is better than Webber, and no, we don't need to bash out their race results again.

I remember thinking after he retired in first few races of the seasons he still remained relatively upbeat post race and wasn't whinging about how unreliable the car was etc, incidently at one of the same races Lewis did exactly that which really surprised me, he really should know better!

He seems to have a problem with overtaking apparently (Hamilton was complaining in Turkey before the podium, Sutil was not impressed at British GP and there was some other race where Hamilton complained about his style? ) Anyway for some reason Hamilton can be aggressive as he wants where he wants (pitlane exit etc) and gets away with it, maybe cos he has proven his worth? and others don't!

As for people getting annoyed with his finger pointing thing, I am pretty sure it must be some kind of tradition for him (every driver has a signature celebration) and you guys can think its arrogant but probably sharing that moment with his team, family and fans so you will have to get used it!
I hate to say it but I think everyone forgot Vettel was German until Schumacher made his comeback, everyone loved him at the beginning of this year! Hence the constant use of terms like arrogant, spoilt etc

I really don't think his nationality plays a role in it personally. It certainly doesn't for me.

Red Bull has, without doubt, two of the fastest drivers on the grid, in arguably the best car on the grid.
Sebastian Vettel - young, talented, fast, 'preferred' image of RBR, future WDC?
Mark Webber - experienced, 'been there, done that', still fast, equal of Vettel on his day
What do you expect will happen with two drivers like this? Isn't it the classic 'old bull, young bull' scenario (no pun intended)?
Competition within a team can be fair and controlled, depending on the strength of the team management.
This is where RBR have failed badly. Horner seems unable to put a lid on the simmering tensions within RBR despite having the title of Team Principal.
One would have to wonder whether he really has been granted the responsibilities that go with the title. I can't imagine Patrick Head is his heyday with Williams allowing this sort of soap opera going on.
So where to now for Red Bull? I can't see them picking a favourite after the recent press schemozzle, especially when Webber has 3 wins vs the 2 of Hamilton, Button & Vettel. Horner needs to grow some balls & take proper charge of the F1 operations, even if this means telling the shadowy Marko to ***k off.
To many observers Marko seems to be 'the fly in the ointment'. He has the role of Red Bull talent scout (or whatever the official title) but also seems to have influence within the F1 team in excess of what his title would suggest.
Red Bull can win or lose both championships through their own actions - the choice is theirs.

Sunday:
MW: Not bad for a 2nd driver.
I'm gonna have a world with the people of RB tomorrow.

Monday:
MW: Mr. Marko, I want...
HM: BITCH, retreat yourself.

Thursday:
MW: "My disappointment on Saturday after qualifying spilled over into Sunday...
... Christian Horner and I... share our GP3 team and interest in finding and nurturing young racing talent,
... We've moved on."

Not bad for a 2nd driver... eh !?

seems to me webber got what he wanted though. for now anyway.

Is it as easy as it sounds? Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your post whatsoever, but pondering inner fortunes, I am running out of ideas how this could be solved, because whatever you do, there will be noise, and choice, limited as they are, probably will have to be among those.

Webber with help of media created situation that he will now demand preferential (not equal) treatment. Nothing less than off track destruction of Vettel's career will be acceptable, which is a reason why Vettel probably would be better off to seek alternatives, and dissolve his contract with RBR by the year end.

vettel would have been better off if red bull just treated them the same and whoever won won it fair and square.

Vettel to leave Red Bull? I can hardly imagine such a situation. Really, hardly...
All what Vettel has to do is to beat Webber now and move in front of him in the championship standing. I donno why it will be such a bad deal.

Raikkonen is going to join in 2012

"Raikkonen is believed to be keen for his relationship with Red Bull to be a long term one, opening the door for a possible F1 return with the energy drink firm's team in 2012." http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85282

Really? And you know this how? That sounds a tad melodramatic to me.

And where else is Vettel going to go, I'm sure Mercedes would love him but I'm not sure at the expense of kicking one of their own drivers out (I think Schumi will stay), and frankly for a driver of Vettel's level, both Renault and Mercedes would be a step down.

That 2015 deal is another story though, I think for any driver that is simply too far in the future to commit to a team.

Oh dear, I guess we'll have another year of Kimi rumours . Though I think its more likely that a Red Bull junior will get moved up if Webber retires as they've got a bit of a backlog of them at the moment.

In the paperback edition of that same article, the Red Bull source at British GP states that they want to keep Kimi even if they have not talked with Citroën yet.
That same source says that they have the F1 team full and therefore Kimi should rally. I wonder when did that source talked to Autosport: before of after Webber’s public statements about the team?

Massa doesn't seem to be getting any better, perhaps a few reconsiderations on Ferrari's part and a few calls from Bernie could get him in there 2 years early?

That said, I don't think Ferrari will want to get rid of Massa, nor am I sure Seb wants to leave whatever goes on TBH.....

I would put my money on Buemi. I, personally, prefer Alguersuari, but Buemi has the right “godfather”.

Based on your historical posting record I dare to say that you would be one of the first ones NEVER to accept equality within RBR, and screaming bloody murder unless clear and confirmed advantage to Webber, for which you will find "justification".

Melodramatic? I don't think so. Just fed up with posters, media, and Weber heavy politics at RBR. Nothing more.

Pot > Kettle > Black!

Can you say: "MiPe!"

There would have been absolutely ZERO comment from the Worlds media if that wing had been left on Mark Webbers car, no question at all, because it would have been fair that the driver who had the problem retained the problem. Fixing the problem by making it the other drivers problem is exaclty why this became a shit storm.

Your last paragraph is just nonsensical gibberish, Vettel will stay where the fastest car is being made. As long as the team can support equally both drivers as is their claim life will go on for both drivers.

and based on your historical posting record you've never had a nice thing to say about webber.
whats your point? people have opinions and they tend to stick to them.

You forget (as always) that Red Bull has initiated the entire drama. Mark Webber has happy to play the team man when Vettel was the star of 2009. Or have you forgotten?

So why was 2009 sweetness and light for Milton Keynes squad (and Vettel)...but in 2010 Vettel has to leave before his career is destroyed? What exactly has changed?

I know what has changed...Webber has improved his performance. His speed is now inconvenient to certain aspects of Red Bull management.

Off track destruction? What are you smoking?

Vettel is being favored by RBR ever since the season started, yet he fails to deliver. If he leaves RBR because they don't favor him enough - he could easily become next Villeneuve... but without a WDC.

That is ridiculous.. he is a whisker of the championship lead having lost a PILE of points to fortune. He has been the better (of two very good) Red Bull driver so far in my opinion, and there is precisely zero reason for that to change.

Every driver loses a pile of points to fortune every year,he has had 2 non finishes this year and one was his own fault its not that big a deal.Ive seen worse misfortune,a lot worse.

There are no excuses this year for either driver,they have a fast car that is fairly reliable,so Vettel needs to pick up his pace and Webber needs to find some consistency.

Hopefully the favoritism has stopped now,and Webber gets a fair go at the title.

Marko (according to GMM anyway, so slight pinch of salt required) has been talking to the German media - he sounds a bit like some forumers on this board!

And I actually agree with nikolai - Vettel has been particularly unlucky, but at this point most of the other drivers have lost points through misfortune as well, and Vettel has chucked away a fair few all by himself.

Its funny the way people see things.

Here is the thing:

Webber isnt causing Vettels unreliability problems yet vettel is causing Webber problems by stealing his wing and crashing in to him in Turkey.

Also the strategy always seems to fall Vettels way,but i wont start on that.Maybe its just coincidence.


If Vettel stops pinching Webbers wings and doesnt crash in to him in a straight line, then everything will be honky dory.

He has been slightly better than Webber so far, I can agree on that, but this is still far worse than two McLaren drivers. That's why I said that he 'fails to deliver'. With car that is fastest in quali and usually fastest in race any great driver would be leading champinoship by >25 points by now.

A bit! It's like he's stealing bourbon's and Sakae's posts!! Plagarism!!!