Id love to know why a car that could run a few tenths of the front runners in qualifying, suddenly had trouble keeping inside 2 seconds down on those same cars in front in the race??
Jenson claimed he coudnt even keep up with new tyres on Webbers car wich had 30 lap+ tyres.
Full Version: McLaren - MP4-25 Thread [merged]
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McLaren were just not good enough today. Lewis and Jenson were a mile behind the first two before the SC. And what were they thinking with the strategy? They were clearly struggling with the tyres and should have come in sooner. I just wish they could get their act together, two years running they have produced poor cars. 
The WDC and WCC are gone, McLaren should now concentrate on next year.
The WDC and WCC are gone, McLaren should now concentrate on next year.
How did they not materialize? Compare today to Monaco and or Hungaroring for a comparision.
The car improved significantly.
I never wanted the Korean GP so bad, without it Mclaren is done in both races.
The car improved significantly.
I never wanted the Korean GP so bad, without it Mclaren is done in both races.
QUOTE (Coral @ Sep 26 2010, 14:36) 
McLaren were just not good enough today. Lewis and Jenson were a mile behind the first two before the SC. And what were they thinking with the strategy? They were clearly struggling with the tyres and should have come in sooner. I just wish they could get their act together, two years running they have produced poor cars.
The WDC and WCC are gone, McLaren should now concentrate on next year.
The WDC and WCC are gone, McLaren should now concentrate on next year.
The team can turn it around -it aint over.
QUOTE (JackTorrance @ Sep 26 2010, 14:36)
Id love to know why a car that could run a few tenths of the front runners in qualifying, suddenly had trouble keeping inside 2 seconds down on those same cars in front in the race??
Jenson claimed he coudnt even keep up with new tyres on Webbers car wich had 30 lap+ tyres.
Jenson claimed he coudnt even keep up with new tyres on Webbers car wich had 30 lap+ tyres.
Even Barricello had better laptimes thaN McLaren
Button was not able to catch a battered RedBULL
Lewis only chance was after the SC to overtake Webber, but......Webber
QUOTE (meddo @ Sep 26 2010, 16:40)
Upgrades backfired. It helped in qualy, but backfired in the race. Somehow, all the upgrades seem to be rather large, and in need of steep learning curve how to utilize them in best possible way.
And to add the insult to the injury, we have to watch helpless Jenson again that blue r....rd who again had more luck than brains.
And to add the insult to the injury, we have to watch helpless Jenson again that blue r....rd who again had more luck than brains.
The funny thing is that they focussed on the race pace said Hamilton....
QUOTE (Bonaventura @ Sep 26 2010, 11:43)
Even Barricello had better laptimes thaN McLaren
Button was not able to catch a battered RedBULL
Lewis only chance was after the SC to overtake Webber, but......Webber
Button was not able to catch a battered RedBULL
Lewis only chance was after the SC to overtake Webber, but......Webber
Webber had a horrible qualifying, it was never meant to be close between him and any of the Mclarens at this track.
QUOTE (Bonaventura @ Sep 26 2010, 14:43)
Even Barricello had better laptimes thaN McLaren
Button was not able to catch a battered RedBULL
Lewis only chance was after the SC to overtake Webber, but......Webber
Button was not able to catch a battered RedBULL
Lewis only chance was after the SC to overtake Webber, but......Webber
only due to the tyres been worn out- I hope the rear wing has not lead to this
Why were they so slow on the option?
Whatever, try to keep up with what's going on. That shouldn't be so hard.
This is the MP4-25 thread - keep it on topic
So the McLaren was much better in qualifying than in Hungary, the race speed did not improve nearly as much. Hope that is limited to such tracks and not a tendency we will see at the other tracks as well.
Car does not look so great and seems Ferrari and RBR are in advantage for rest of season. Winning titles is going to be a very difficult task now.
QUOTE (seahawk @ Sep 26 2010, 15:10)
So the McLaren was much better in qualifying than in Hungary, the race speed did not improve nearly as much. Hope that is limited to such tracks and not a tendency we will see at the other tracks as well.
Perhaps a wrong set up, probably Macca tought it would be wet at the first laps
QUOTE (Atreiu @ Sep 26 2010, 22:36)
How did they not materialize? Compare today to Monaco and or Hungaroring for a comparision.
The car improved significantly.
The car improved significantly.
"Did not materialize" in the sense that I didn't expect the gap to RBR and SFM to be that big. There were times when Lewis was 5-7/10th's off (discounting the backmarkers and last few laps of the options). Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I was hoping to close the gap to 3-5/10ths, especially how close Lewis seemed after Q. Hopefully, these upgrades, together with the Suzuka upgrade, will reap more benefits. Enough talk about "gathering more data" to improve the package.
JB said on BBC that they wanted to put something new on the car but were not able to do so this weekend and also that it would be on for Suzuki and it (whatever it is) should make a big difference... anybody else notice that?
QUOTE (De Jokke @ Sep 26 2010, 17:20)
Nice and calculated attitude from Button.
QUOTE (Bonaventura @ Sep 26 2010, 17:12)
Perhaps a wrong set up, probably Macca tought it would be wet at the first laps
I doubt they would have been so close in qualifying with a semi-wet set-up. On the other hand we all expected that McLaren would struggle at this race, so apart from lewis being hit by Webber, nothing is lost yet.
So, with only 3 races left, doesn't look good ...
(yes only 3, Bernie apparently said today that Korea's chances "aren't good", go figure)
(yes only 3, Bernie apparently said today that Korea's chances "aren't good", go figure)
Well that's a shame. Korea was supposed to be a good track for the 25. 100 points vs. 75.
I'm starting to think that McLaren has lost the momentum, won't be able to regain it and will fall behind RBR and Ferrari from now on. But we will see. Half way through the season I expected the exact opposite to happen.
QUOTE (nsidb @ Sep 26 2010, 18:25)
Because it would have been the same, we needed at least 28 secs clear. So he stayed on track hoping to increase the distance, but we just didn't have pace
it was clear we didn't have the pace today, but when WEBBER was doing the same times of LEWIS they should have called him in... simple as that..
how are you going to gain some time if you are slower??
QUOTE (Sinister @ Sep 26 2010, 16:51)
Well that's a shame. Korea was supposed to be a good track for the 25. 100 points vs. 75.
really?
the 2nd and 3rd sectors seems like prime red bull territory
QUOTE (CrashPad @ Sep 26 2010, 13:07)
I'm starting to think that McLaren has lost the momentum, won't be able to regain it and will fall behind RBR and Ferrari from now on. But we will see. Half way through the season I expected the exact opposite to happen.
They lost no momentum, it was hamilton's DNFs which make it look so bad.
Slightly o/t but I don't really like the look of the McLaren, quite ugly (IMO) but it looked stunning under the lights.
So much for the big talk that i knew was BS. Miles behind.
funny how even with 2 ordinary results, like a 3/4th in each of the last 2 races and hamilton would be leading the wdc
gonna look back on it and regret it massively, the failures in hungary and spain as well, without them he'd be leading by a mile : (
gonna look back on it and regret it massively, the failures in hungary and spain as well, without them he'd be leading by a mile : (
QUOTE (hulmerist @ Sep 26 2010, 17:44)
funny how even with 2 ordinary results, like a 3/4th in each of the last 2 races and hamilton would be leading the wdc
gonna look back on it and regret it massively, the failures in hungary and spain as well, without them he'd be leading by a mile : (
gonna look back on it and regret it massively, the failures in hungary and spain as well, without them he'd be leading by a mile : (
Where would Vettel be without his failures in Bahrain and Australia, where would Jenson be without Vettel taking him out at Spa, etc etc
QUOTE (Jeag @ Sep 26 2010, 17:48)
Where would Vettel be without his failures in Bahrain and Australia, where would Jenson be without Vettel taking him out at Spa, etc etc
yeh i know, i'm just bummed i guess
QUOTE (Jeag @ Sep 26 2010, 17:44)
So much for the big talk that i knew was BS. Miles behind.
made worse by a poor start, if he'd got ahead of vettel he could've stayed ahead with a cleverly time pit stop
Street tracks where never the MP4-25's strongest point. So it was good to see that they had the pace to keep up with the leading cars. Hopefully the next couple of races will suit the car much better. Suzuka looks like a track where the F-Duct and Merc engine could be a big advantage point.
QUOTE (hulmerist @ Sep 27 2010, 00:49)
yeh i know, i'm just bummed i guess
We're all bummed. It not just Lewis' DNF, but I guess more so on our pace. Cautiously optimistic that some bits were held back this weekend and will be available for Suzuka... ? Perhaps.
QUOTE (Vids21 @ Sep 27 2010, 00:54)
Street tracks where never the MP4-25's strongest point. So it was good to see that they had the pace to keep up with the leading cars. Hopefully the next couple of races will suit the car much better. Suzuka looks like a track where the F-Duct and Merc engine could be a big advantage point.
Not really... ALO and VET opened up a 20sec. gap on Lewis, while Jense (on newer primes) wasn't able to close in on WEB (on 50+ lap-old primes).
Very unfortunate today on what was supposed to be the weakest circuit for the '25'. The 24 not being very strong aerodynamically did well at Suzuka last year. I mention early in the weekend that the McLaren update wasn't as big as I had expected and Button mentioned that there were some pretty big updates that didn't make it to Singapore, so this explains it. Hopefully the '25' will be strong in Suzuka all is not lost.
I did cringe however when Ron Dennis mentioned great starts and race pace of the MP4-25. I'll say it again, its always best to simply inform the media of any new updates you've brought to the car and let the stopwatch do the rest.
I did cringe however when Ron Dennis mentioned great starts and race pace of the MP4-25. I'll say it again, its always best to simply inform the media of any new updates you've brought to the car and let the stopwatch do the rest.
i guess it's like last season and just hoping for a win to end the season with, it'd be nice to beat red bull and ferrari on pure pace at least once in these last 4 races
QUOTE (Jeag @ Sep 26 2010, 18:44)
So much for the big talk that i knew was BS. Miles behind.
Not really. The SC triggered situations made the McLaren look 'miles behind'. The option tyres doesn't suit the car for so long. In an ordinary race they could pit much earlier and would have a good pace on the primes and you couldn't say 'miles behind.'
But in a max downforce track McLaren is only the 3rd best, but 3rd and 4th could have been a doable and great result even with that.
QUOTE (Sinister @ Sep 26 2010, 17:54)
We're all bummed. It not just Lewis' DNF, but I guess more so on our pace. Cautiously optimistic that some bits were held back this weekend and will be available for Suzuka... ? Perhaps.
Some bolt on part isn't going to make up 1.5 seconds per lap even if that probably translates to a second or 9 tenths around a quicker circuit. McLaren have been out developed by Ferrari, and have failed to catch Redbull. Their only hope now is to keep the pressure on the best they can and hope the faster cars make mistakes or fail in front of them, in my opinion. The situation isn't as bad as it looks today since Singapore is hardly a McLaren track, but it is clear over the last few races, even counting Lewis' win, that the Ferrari are ahead and the RBR remain ahead on almost any type of track.
QUOTE (hunnylander @ Sep 26 2010, 17:56)
Not really. The SC triggered situations made the McLaren look 'miles behind'. The option tyres doesn't suit the car for so long. In an ordinary race they could pit much earlier and would have a good pace on the primes and you couldn't say 'miles behind.'
But in a max downforce track McLaren is only the 3rd best, but 3rd and 4th could have been a doable and great result even with that.
But in a max downforce track McLaren is only the 3rd best, but 3rd and 4th could have been a doable and great result even with that.
This is a good point, but it still shows us how on this circuit the RBR and Ferrari preserved their tyres much better than the McLaren. I hope that its a trend that ends here.
QUOTE (Gridfire @ Sep 26 2010, 18:01)
Some bolt on part isn't going to make up 1.5 seconds per lap even if that probably translates to a second or 9 tenths around a quicker circuit. McLaren have been out developed by Ferrari, and have failed to catch Redbull. Their only hope now is to keep the pressure on the best they can and hope the faster cars make mistakes or fail in front of them, in my opinion. The situation isn't as bad as it looks today since Singapore is hardly a McLaren track, but it is clear over the last few races, even counting Lewis' win, that the Ferrari are ahead and the RBR remain ahead on almost any type of track.
It doesn't quite work like that. First of all we have to talk about circuit characteristics, then we have to understand that an update that brings more downforce and helps tyre management can have a cumulative effect on a race stint/laptime.
QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Sep 26 2010, 19:03)
This is a good point, but it still shows us how on this circuit the RBR and Ferrari preserved their tyres much better than the McLaren. I hope that its a trend that ends here.
Don't hold your breath for that.
That's a beneficial feature of the car it's good on the prime as that's the more used tyre in an non-chaotic race. It relates with its stiffness, I think, the car just needs ordinary races or damp conditions and could deliver wins in the remaining races.
But the biggest problem for McLaren would be if the Korean GP won't happen.
QUOTE (Sinister @ Sep 26 2010, 18:54)
Not really... ALO and VET opened up a 20sec. gap on Lewis, while Jense (on newer primes) wasn't able to close in on WEB (on 50+ lap-old primes).
With keeping up I mean compared to the pace they had in Hungaroring. Slow tracks are clearly not the cars strongest point so it was good to see they gained a lot of speed of that point.
Feeling very depressed about today. 
Japan is a circuit made for Red Bull, Ferrari will be good everywhere,Korea race isn't likely to happen and Lewis didn't finish today.I just don't understand how the 25 couldn't compete with RBR and Ferrari after being so close to them in qualifying. It just annoys me why Mclaren just didn't pit Lewis at the right time and not left it all that time, how can such a large team like Mclaren screw up on strategies so many times this year! Lewis should leave them at the end of his contract, his team keeps letting him down.
Japan is a circuit made for Red Bull, Ferrari will be good everywhere,Korea race isn't likely to happen and Lewis didn't finish today.I just don't understand how the 25 couldn't compete with RBR and Ferrari after being so close to them in qualifying. It just annoys me why Mclaren just didn't pit Lewis at the right time and not left it all that time, how can such a large team like Mclaren screw up on strategies so many times this year! Lewis should leave them at the end of his contract, his team keeps letting him down.
QUOTE (GAZF1nut @ Sep 26 2010, 18:46)
Feeling very depressed about today. Japan is a circuit made for Red Bull, Ferrari will be good everywhere,Korea race isn't likely to happen and Lewis didn't finish today.I just don't understand how the 25 couldn't compete with RBR and Ferrari after being so close to them in qualifying. It just annoys me why Mclaren just didn't pit Lewis at the right time and not left it all that time, how can such a large team like Mclaren screw up on strategies so many times this year! Lewis should leave them at the end of his contract, his team keeps letting him down.
Japan is a circuit made for Red Bull, Ferrari will be good everywhere,Korea race isn't likely to happen and Lewis didn't finish today.I just don't understand how the 25 couldn't compete with RBR and Ferrari after being so close to them in qualifying. It just annoys me why Mclaren just didn't pit Lewis at the right time and not left it all that time, how can such a large team like Mclaren screw up on strategies so many times this year! Lewis should leave them at the end of his contract, his team keeps letting him down.As MW explained in the forum, their was nothing more they could have done after the safety car. Stopping Lewis during the safety car would have been a gamble.
I'm normally very optimistic but I now think the time has come to admit to myself that we are unlikely to see one of our drivers holding this years crown.
I am now just looking for some good results to re-build the optimism for next year.
I am now just looking for some good results to re-build the optimism for next year.
QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Sep 26 2010, 18:50)
As MW explained in the forum, their was nothing more they could have done after the safety car. Stopping Lewis during the safety car would have been a gamble.
Did he explain why they left lewis and button out for something like 5/6 laps whilst webber was gaining time on them?
The disappointment at lewis DNFing made me forget about how flippin angry I was at the time.
QUOTE (robefc @ Sep 26 2010, 18:57)
Did he explain why they left lewis and button out for something like 5/6 laps whilst webber was gaining time on them?
The disappointment at lewis DNFing made me forget about how flippin angry I was at the time.
The disappointment at lewis DNFing made me forget about how flippin angry I was at the time.
Maybe not, but at that time it would have made no difference. Lewis needed 28-30 seconds, the gap was 20-24 seconds max.
QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Sep 26 2010, 19:00)
Maybe not, but at that time it would have made no difference. Lewis needed 28-30 seconds, the gap was 20-24 seconds max.
I'm sorry but that's not true.
The difference would be that hamilton would be 4 seconds behind webber,rather than 8, 4 seconds would seem to be a significant amount of time to make up/lose through strategy. As it was lewis made up over 3 seconds in the 2 laps he had before mark before the SC came out.
Even if they felt that something might mysteriously happen to slow down mark or speed lewis up why not stop jenson? he had no chance of jumping webber so it would have been better for him plus would have given an indication of the pace of the hards for lewis.
I can't see any explanation that defends macca's strategy today when it became clear that our times were dropping off to levels that were slower than webber and rubens.
QUOTE (robefc @ Sep 26 2010, 19:10)
I'm sorry but that's not true.
The difference would be that hamilton would be 4 seconds behind webber,rather than 8, 4 seconds would seem to be a significant amount of time to make up/lose through strategy. As it was lewis made up over 3 seconds in the 2 laps he had before mark before the SC came out.
Even if they felt that something might mysteriously happen to slow down mark or speed lewis up why not stop jenson? he had no chance of jumping webber so it would have been better for him plus would have given an indication of the pace of the hards for lewis.
I can't see any explanation that defends macca's strategy today when it became clear that our times were dropping off to levels that were slower than webber and rubens.
The difference would be that hamilton would be 4 seconds behind webber,rather than 8, 4 seconds would seem to be a significant amount of time to make up/lose through strategy. As it was lewis made up over 3 seconds in the 2 laps he had before mark before the SC came out.
Even if they felt that something might mysteriously happen to slow down mark or speed lewis up why not stop jenson? he had no chance of jumping webber so it would have been better for him plus would have given an indication of the pace of the hards for lewis.
I can't see any explanation that defends macca's strategy today when it became clear that our times were dropping off to levels that were slower than webber and rubens.
Perhaps they were waiting for a safety car to come before it did (that is, before they stopped)...
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