I think the important thing for McLaren is to maximize the performance of the car for the rest of season whilst it's being developed, this weekend in particular. I'd be pleased with 2 drivers in the Top 5 by Sunday. I also think come Spa and Monza we will be much more competitve with 'Flexy' Front Wing+Splitter and fully integrated EBD and track characteristic that suit the car.

Nicely done, sir.

Server is as baffled as Paddy Lowe and co with regards to the front wing.

I assumed it was McLaren engineers overloading the server when checking in on our highly informed views on implementing the flexi-stuff.

Hey 2183, it wasn't that bad ...

What about the swing-o-meter do we need another new one?

Some say the swing generates as much power as a small wind farm.

Stop that... 2183 makes me sound like a server.

Either McLaren have some alternative floors, or they've told Lewis to "push" ;)

Why then do you think people are reading too much into the performance of 2 races when you basically stated what some are saying but in different words?

If we dont globally say one car is faster than the rest and we get into analising which tracks fit which cars, overall, most of the tracks left fit Ferrari...

Maybe they brought the old ones too.

Good news. Should mean some progress. Along with a better setup...

Sounds like they don't have a handle on the problem.

It's stupid when McLaren make these claims. Because before this they said they would catch up and even leap RBR.

Their factory tools don't seem that impressive at all :/ There doesn't seem to be excellent correlation between wind tunnel/CFD and the track, like say Ferrari/RBR whose continuous updates have hit the ground running.

It's weird we are even out developed by Ferrari because they had to copy both the FDuct AND EBD!

there is an interview on f1total, where hamilton cast light on the problem. Just read that before everybody goes overboard. Mclaren has two sets of wings, one for high and one for low df tracks. they used the low df at hockenheim, which gave the best compromise. It was not the optimal solution as it didnt produce enough df. But the high df would have added to much df and hence made them to slow on the straights. Both drivers are more positive about this gp as they can use the higher df version which should suit this track perfectly

your brilliant, can you find the qoute where they said that they would get in front of rb

so because they have new floors they dont have a handle on the problem

edit

ok sorry, thought it sounded strange to judge, just from reports that floors were brought in

I guess I read it wrong.

I took that as they brought a variety of different floors, meaning they were not sure which one would work.

It's not long since Ferrari couldn't get the F-ing duct to work and everyone was saying they can't develop and were out of it, sack Stefano.

It's a cyclical thing and we're out of phase with Ferrari, that's all.

And these quotes about Paddy Lowe not understanding the flexi wing - that is highly unlikely IMO.

Hate to be Mr. Devil's Advocate, but what do Mclaren have to gain from lying about it?

I think very good news, Mclaren have new parts and floor for Hungaroring, i hope this parts are ok!

The car in germany with low downforce package was very poor in speed, third sector we lost a lot of time.

Here we will go well, i think high downforce package it´s ok for the 25, and people said qualifying will be on wet.

I trust in Paddy Loew´s words, they think close a bit of gap even all the gap.

Come on macca boys!!!

Regards

It's having a flexible front wing fitted to help stabilise it.

well the way scarbs describes it, it is pretty straightforward. Everybody in here is speculating about multiple flex etc. etc. but scarbs says the load on the wing is far greater then 500n test, hence you just make a frontwing that flexes at say around 600. If thats the primciple it will be very easy to implement. I dont know. I think it sounds to easy. Or said in another way the FIA cant be that stupid and easy to cheat. But im sure what ever ferrari can think off we can think of.

So far, assuming there is something in the front wing and that RBR came out with it:

RBR Innovations:
- EBD
- Flex front wing

McLaren
- Fduct

That means, teams had to copy/adapt:

RBR
- Fduct

McLaren
- EBD
- Flex FW

Ferrari
- fduct
- Flex FW
- EBD

Yet Ferrari has full package working great (at least in last race) and McLaren still didn't get to work the EBD and has still to copy the flex FW.

That means that either McLaren aren't working greatly or that they indeed don't have an as good engineer team as Ferrari (and I don't mean this as an attack or something, just fair discussion )

Why though? Why have they gotten themselves in a situation where their aero package is not suited to the majority of the tracks which are medium downforce? I noticed that Jenson mentioned this the other day but nobody really commented on it.
Is it an excuse or is it actually the case?
I realise that yes they are leading both championships so have done very well with this compromised package. However there have been 3(?) races where they have stated that the package was in the 'too little downforce' range.
I find that quite extraordinary.

Still doesn't explain what Mclaren has to gain by lying about it.

Do remember that scarbs has been wrong plenty in recent times. He's certainly no holy grail of truth.

I read somewhere, possibly from adam cooper, that charlie would be aware of this possibility and would likely have caught it in the inspection.

However, I think it also mentioned charlie was smart so I'm not sure how reliable the opinion is!

I was thinking of an overview like this in my head the other day and you're right. These are the 3 main talking points of innovation so far this year, and Ferrari coped fairly well with all of them. McLaren hasn't really, and it's a good question why not. It's a bad sign they're still in the unknown fase with the flex wing.

Apparently ferrari were working on the EBD for 6 months so the issue might be that ferrari spotted the advantage much earlier than mclaren who were blinded by suspicions about ride height.

I still don't understand why everybody didn't sit up and take notice when RB put fake exhaust stickers on there cars, surely that should have had the reverse effect of drawing attention to the EBD...

I know, and i dont say hes right! i think it sounds to simple also, because that the same method they always used to flex wings. And i agree that Lowe wins nothing by lying. But im not that worried. EVerything ferrari can do we can do better, just look at the current standings. I quess its because ferrari is becomming so good at copying this year, since they didnt introduce one single revolutionary element themselfes even-though they had far more time to develop their car, then others

agreed, that should have made the alarm clocks start ringing

But how would he catch it if the only test is that specified in the rules? The obvious answer is to increase the test load, but do they need to give the teams advance notice of this?

The majority ??? how do you know ??? Fact is we dont know. I know they have mentioned more then once and maybe they were right. I dont know. What i do know is that when a car is 8-10kph faster than their main competitors on the straight, they run a lot less downforce. So about the german GP im sure they are right, when they say they had to little DF and that was hurting them.
About the wings. The wings are constructed to work at an optimum level. That is where it delivers its best. The further away you get from that, the less effective the wing is. Unfortunately the optimum DF levels at the german Gp was just between mclarens two Wing configurations

Well we know there are two real high downforce tracks, Monaco and Hungary.
There are 3 low downforce, Canada, Monza and Spa.
With 14 other tracks on the calender this year that is a majority.
If you look at the races McLaren have won this year:
Australia; wet
China; wet
Turkey; Red Bulls tripped over themselves though McLaren were faster anyway
Canada; Low downforce, the only weekend where the McLaren has appeared the fastest car all the time.

Now I realise it's not as simple as that. McLaren have indeed been quick at medium downforce tracks however you'd have to look at the facts and say Red Bulls more middle of the road design was the better option in terms of consistent car pace.

McLaren were quite behind at the begining of the season, while Ferrari were very quick. I wouldn't say we've been out developed in anyway. We'll see after this race.

You love being devil's advocate

IMO Paddy was saying politely that he didn't get that it was legal.

It would be a major surprise if he didn't understand the engineering principles.

And to answer your exact question there's no need to give other teams any kind of timetable, or any clues at all.

Well credit to Ferrari's engineering as ever . The car has been fast in most races, but slow in one or two. The points difference is more down to the drivers I would say.

But as I said we are out of phase. Unless there are more mega innovations on the way then this is catch-up time for the Macs, the rate of progress will slow for the others.

I think it's down to the basic concepts of the cars. The EBD is most likely difficult for the 25 due to the size of the diffuser as well as the lower wishbone positions of the rear suspension being too low, which I believe (I may be wrong) had to be altered slightly for the EBD. Not all enhancement concepts will work well on every car. The basic design concept has a lot of influence I believe.

F1 cars are put together as blocks of legos, Massacrator.

Except the EBD and the flexi front wing right?

C'mon man, I'm not trying to diss on Mclaren here. There's just some stuff I've been hearing from various sources that dont quite click with me. I'd be saying the same if it was my team, just I like I doubted early in winter testing that Ferrari had any B-spec car they've been working on since March with some magical diffuser that would take them above and beyond.

I just try and be reasonable with my expectations, whether it be admitting that Mclaren will dominate a race, or that they might not be 'safe' in their situation with getting these solutions to work. I remember hearing some explanation for why the EBD would be hard for them to get to work, so maybe thats true, and its just a more complicated matter with this car, but it just seems that even though you want to put it down to Ferrari just 'copying' others all year, you've gotta admit that being able to copy a competitor's solution the quickest of anyone is a VERY big advantage and is telling of their development pace. Had Mclaren been quick to adopt any of these solutions, we'd no doubt hear about how incredibly genius Mclaren's engineers are.

I've still been very positive about Mclaren's chances overall, especially considering their situation in the standings. At one point, I was very worried that Ferrari might not be able to come back from the position they were in fully, but sometimes a team can surprise you, and its usually a top one like Ferrari or Mclaren that can do it.

Easy Mclaren + the other non Flex wing teams make a big noise about an advantage in a broken rule because the test in stringent enough them maybe the FIA will change the test (as they have done before) and then the onus is on Red Bull (and Ferrari) to change their wings rather than the other teams...

Thats the point - there is a lot of panic here (as there was on the ferrari thread) but in reality there is a way to go yet and 'whos quickest' can and probably will move from team to team over the remainder of the season (although im suspecting it to stay within Red bull Ferrari and McLaren)

Last race was not representative from McLaren point of view (just as Turkey wasn't for Ferrari). Don't know what problems did Ferrari have in Turkey, but here McLaren didn't have optimum DF package, Lewis crashed his car on Friday and probably didn't have ideal setup too, and EBD is probably still a bit of mystery for them.

Lewis may be right that McLaren is only third fastest car through most of this season, but its most reliable and if you also have reliable drivers - results can be great. Of course, when your opponents have problem free weekend and show their full speed - its demoralising, but McLaren will be back.

P.S. I really like this years reliability and fingers crossed it continues until the end, for it could well decide both championships.

"Ferrari
- Slotted front wheels"

...and what did that do for them pre f-duct/EBD/flex wing??? yeah, that's right, nothing!!!

Thats unfair - they obv have a aero advantage - and they are unable to be copied because of the homogulation. Wheel covers bought 0.25 IIRC so if these slots bring just half that it's a good innovation. Ferrari willl no doubt loose that advantage next year however.

Ferrari have done a great job but don't forget they started at the front and then had a fallow period when a lot of their fans (and I may've seen one or two posts from you in there too ) were critical of the development process. Alonso himself came out to say that the team need to push the developments more. It seems now that Ferrari were focused on some bigger upgrades and the F-duct instead of small steps at each race. It has paid off now but they still have ground to make up in the points table. One DNF from Alonso and it's starting to look very difficult for them to get back to the front. Likewise, a DNF from hamilton changes things dramatically too. I do feel though, that Ferrari need to make hay while the sun shines as I think we'll see Mclaren close the gap in the next few races. Come Singapore they'll probably be neck and neck in terms of points - I hope on performance too. But no doubt Ferrari have done a great job and it seems that they're really making a push for the title.

The one great advantage Mclaren have is their engine. Both Button and Hamilton will be using their fifth engine for the third time in Hungary where as Ferrari will be using their 6th engine for the 2nd time. Expect both teams to introduce a new engine for Spa. Ferrari then will be on number 7, Mclaren will be on number 6. So in effect Mclaren have an extra engine at their disposal which is a great luxury to have. Especially with Monza coming up where they will definitely introduce a new engine (i'm not sure ferrari will be able too). I think we could see some grid penalties or engine failures for the Ferrari at a crucial time in the championship.

With regard to the Mp4-25, I think the best we can hope for is a weekend of optimisation and trying to pick up as many points as possible. Clearly Hamilton didn't get to do much set-up work last grand prix so itll be good to see what he can get out of the car with some time spent. Another 4-5th haul would be great and if neither Hamilton or Button can do it, Massa winning would be perfect! We need the points to be shared around while the silver limo gets back up to speed.

Why are we discussing Ferrari here?