cosign

Could you please do us, McLaren fans, a favour and never show up again on this topic? You Ferrari-fan in disguise? It is going so wel with interesting posts, 4 pages already and the silly season just started. Please hold the honor to yourself.

And i'm quit surprised that you think you are smarter then al those well educated engineers working as a team, thinking as a team back at the Woking.

KERS has disadvantages, which slows the car not less, than it speeds up.

For KERS they have to design bigger sidepods = bigger drag, worse airflow around the diffuser = worse aero, slower car
For KERS they have to designe bigger cooling inlets and outlets = bigger drag, worse airflow... = worse aero, slower car
Because of KERS they can use much less ballast = less well balanced weight distribution with less optimal setting range, higher Center of Gravity = slower car, worse handling

KERS adds much more disadvantages than benefits. It's not just to push a button and you extract 3-4 tenths from the laptimes (though not on every track, on some tracks 1 lap of breaking isn't enough to fully charge it).

Look at the WCC standings to decide which concept won; with or without KERS.

McLaren could have been good if KERS would have been mandatory.

"Anomnader" : I wonder what a "extreme DD" is



Sorry but you are mixing things up here. Thàt was an "extreme DP" you are referring to.

oops

Nice, clear and concise reposne.

Word, good points right there.

Agree! @ Hunnylander, thanks.

Erm that's the wrong way to look at it. Non KERS cars have fallen backwards and KERS cars when developed like McLaren have come forward. If development was freezed for off season and the next season started with exactly the same cars we've finished now, McLaren would be the best car, and most of it due to KERS. At the moment, McLaren is taking a huge risk by not running KERS next year. KERS is something you can fall back on if you manage to have a bad car. If you have a bad car and no KERS, then you're pretty much effed for the rest of the year.

To put it simple the 24 is FATTY, the fattiest car of the field. That's never good. That translates to a worse aero and a slower car. It may be more than 1 sec slower because of its less optimal aero. Just because KERS gives some loss back, and McLaren threw an enormous amount of money and effort (which no other team did) to develop it into something useable, doesn't make the starting concept the winner concept.

In theoretically, what if the 24 in its final state is only an average car capable for average results with an average driver? What if Lewis has flattered the capabilities of the car? McLaren overdeveloped other teams, every team. They polished a turd, like no other. That gave some good results, but only by Hamilton. The car remained bad in high speed cornering, it may have the worst aero of the field.

Martin has said the 25 is already faster than the 24 and they'll develop on it a lot until the season opener. That's without KERS; the 25 without KERS is faster than the 24 with KERS. I'm absolutely sure the 25 will have much better aerodynamics than the 24 had. Aerodynamic performance is the most important and most deciding factor in the current Formula 1.

That's just PR talk that should be taken with a lot of salt. We all know what McLaren were saying after 2008. Stuff like MP24 would be revolutionay etc. Until they run the 25 on track, we'll never know,.

we've told him time and again, yet he continues to repeat his rubbish mantra.... worst Mclaren fan on here for sure, if you can call him that

Like I said, people just assume KERS is the reason behind poor aero. Renault and BMW ditched theirs and didn't manage to develop their car to race winning performance. Ferrari and McLaren both ran without KERS for a race each and the performance degradation was so much that he were forced to put it back in.

I still think it's perfectly possible to build a car with KERS AND good aero.

I dont see anything wrong with MaxFans point. I tend to agree with him about the importance of Kers and how McLaren have surrendered an advantage of having Kers. The champagne is warm imo.

Not just PR talk. Every team should say the same. If their next year car isn't faster already, then they would do something very wrongly.

Last year was different, they didn't know what other teams have achieved, there was no comparison. But this year is different, they know where they and others start from.

I agree. All the teams know what the design parameters are. What is and isn't allowed. There are no caveats or grey areas left for exploitation. Ferrari, Renault and Mclaren, know what aero points Red Bull and Brawn were achieving last season. They know from history that the leading car the following year, roughly makes a 12-15% leap in aero downforce over the previous year best car. Heres a link on Adrian Newey talking about the requirements for next years car, Newey is talking about an evolution and not a revolution. I personally hope Mclaren go ultra aggressive of aero, because I cant see Ferrari coming out with another stinker. We've got to be on the pace from the outset.

PS; Does anybody have any news about Mclaren post Mercedes engine plans? Are they going to buy BMW's F1 engine I.P rights?

Well, waay back in 2004. when I was not so old, and the sun was brighter, Ronzo was at Martins place, and we had oh-so-brilliant designer in Adrian Newey, it took untill Spa to catch up with the rest of the pack, and that was solely because of Ronzo¨s desire to not run in the nude due to the bet he had taken earlier.
This year has shown me what operational capabilities this team has, and what will to turn things around with even worse car than -19 in 2004. So, if Martin says that this car is going to be the real deal, I tend to believe him, and yes, he shown me that he and his team can turn things around much faster than their predecesors (by that I mostly mean Newey). Yes, they undercalculated their goals for this season, but they were also given a heavy burden to bear in form of KERS, which effectively tied one of their collective hands behind back concerning aero development concept, and weight redistribution.
So, yes, Martin has my vote, and yes, he had a turbulent start, but eventually he did delivered, and he did made us proud of this team.

Please, don't feed and quote the obvious troll.

That guy still trolling around? ... Hence, didnt know, he is on my ignore already.

McLaren Mercedes partnership 'as strong as it has ever been'

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79991

Next year is as radicle a departure as this year. The cars will be heavier, bigger and the aero will be different. Ferrari and others whose car didn't work out will have a new design rather than a evolution of the current car. McLaren should be keeping every possible advantage they can get.

Without KERS Mclaren would have never been able to compete with the likes of Red Bull and Brawn. They would have been around Renault and BMW who got rid of their KERS.

Tim Goss is Chief Engineer for MP4-25

And thats an undeniable evidence that you are either just being a troll or an extremely clueless guy, either way u shouldnt be posting here.


I cant count how many articles and quotes we have had from just about everyone involved in F1 abut how much less radical the changes are for next year when compared to this year.

Pff, give the kid a break.

What gives you the right to dicsredit things he may have picked up (or just invented)? There a numerous posters on this BB that have speculated about everything from car development to decicions about future drivers to development strategy and gone with a hunch.

posting blatantly false and misleading statements as fact is not speculation, its trolling.

I'd hate for the mp4-25 thread to get populated by such bull, esp. after the success of the silver donkey one

True. But there are nicer ways telling him to be factual.

The more personal attacks the faster a thread de-rails and subsequently gets closed.

The MP4-24 was definately the prettiest car this season, particularly under the Singapore lights. Lets hope the MP4-25 is even more beautiful.

u dont know his posting history?

By a country mile



Obviously not.

Then u should, im sure I dont speak for myself alone when I say he has used up his "break" quota.

anyways, back to topic... Im interested in seeing what the teams will do to the chassic bodywork to incorporate the bigger fuel tanks. Are we just gonna see bigger bulkier cars or something creative is gonna show up?

I'm sure about that.

Despite that it may be a little longer, it'll be a more fluent and lightsome looking, I guess. It has to be for those better aero numbers.

Yeh, sure will be interesting to see how the fuel gets packaged and how that affects the look of the car. I heard that this may affect the undercut on the sidepods, which is a shame as I like the radically undercut sidepods we had back in 08.

i read somewhere that these will be the longest cars in f1 for decades.

I wonder if this is connected to the MP4-25 Aero philosophy. http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/819/701.html
We tested this 3/4 Friday Practice Sessions in a row but never used it.

Edit:
Look here 3rd Front Wing down on 1st post.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic...9&start=150

Sorry, but I don´t understand your post.

dabrasco, there is an interview with Adrian Newey on the net where he talks about this very thing. He mentions an increase in wheelbase and possible radiator alterations. I know the link is somewhere on the board, I'll see if I can find it and repost it here.

yea I saw that, Im just wondering if teams are going to be able to play around with some radical conceptsand interpretations of how to include the fuel tank in the chassis

Adrian Newey Interview He mentions 2010 regulations changes from 2:39 and more specific design compromises from 3:13.

A related article:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/8/9764.html

This will be interesting to see, but I think the regulations are pretty restrictive in this area. It was mentioned on the MP4-24 thread, but to highlight again, the fact that McLaren used KERS this season and packaged the batteries in the sidepod as well as having to bolt the KERS motor to the V8 unit, they may be better prepared to cope with the larger fuel tanks in 2010. Also the design of the MP4-24 sidepods (with their lack of undercuts) may lend themselves better to the installation of a larger fuel cell. Teams may opt for a purely longer wheelbase, a fatter car or a compromise between the two.

Thanks for the link hunnylander

It is interesting that you pointed that out.
HEIKKI ran without KERS for the 2nd half of the race and I was wondering if this was deliberately done by Mclaren.

One of the attractions of the MP4-24 thread was the openness.
The desire of posters does in no way override the rules of the forum. I would suggest if there are comments, opinions or views that are disagreeable just ignore it - don't reply.
I think this is a better and powerfully effective way of dealing with "trollers" as some call it.

I don't think anyone has the right to determine who is qualified to be a fan of any team.
Tolerance is a virtue and we will all be richer for it.

My 2 cents.

What do you guys make of this?

I've read earlier in this year, these products were under testing by the team members by using them permanently. Nice stuff, they must have good quality if they went trough those extensive testing.

McLaren don't and won't lack sponsors and exlusive partners and suppliers.

Nice if you can afford em. There was a big article about them in Racing Line.

For the God sake! Koba at the place of Kova, if Toyota get out.

Oh, please, don't complain.

McLaren already gave Heikki brake pads to Lewis.

No no #5 is a very good # to have lots of Champs had that # during their WDC winning season!

Yes, it'll be a nice red 5.

Or # 2, if Button comes.