The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > McLaren

UprightRacer

Apr 16 2010, 11:31

Just a thought,

Over the last races, other teams have been changing there downforce levels (taking more wing off) to match our top speed, ie we loose our advantage on the straits.

Now if i was Martin W, and i ran Mclaren i would tell my drivers not to use the F-duct on the car, or stop it from functioning in all the FP sessions, to stop the others knowing weather we are running loads of downforce, and using the wing to compensate, or not. So others would have to guess weather to take downforce of to match, this way it would become more of an advantage come the race... HAHA sneaky!

wt do you think?

Lights

Apr 16 2010, 11:43

QUOTE (UprightRacer @ Apr 16 2010, 13:31)

Just a thought,

Over the last races, other teams have been changing there downforce levels (taking more wing off) to match our top speed, ie we loose our advantage on the straits.

Now if i was Martin W, and i ran Mclaren i would tell my drivers not to use the F-duct on the car, or stop it from functioning in all the FP sessions, to stop the others knowing weather we are running loads of downforce, and using the wing to compensate, or not. So others would have to guess weather to take downforce of to match, this way it would become more of an advantage come the race... HAHA sneaky!

wt do you think?

I once thought about this too. Surely it's one of the best ways to consistently sandbag, but I don't think McLaren is opting to use strategies like this. Soon enough other teams will have it aswell making the advantage McLaren has with it disappear.

Plus the topspeed is not always accurate. A little bit of slipstream does magic.

argiriano

Apr 16 2010, 11:59

This is the real Silver Predator
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery...a-16apr/303.jpg
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery...a-16apr/305.jpg
http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/gallery...a-16apr/309.jpg

Anonymous

Apr 16 2010, 12:07

I have a feeling that no one can beat us here.

Enkei

Apr 16 2010, 12:08

Don't you just love the packed stands in 249?

bogi

Apr 16 2010, 12:10

I love how tightly packed rear end is and still work

kerum gp

Apr 16 2010, 12:17

new desktop wallpaper for every day

bond

Apr 16 2010, 12:43

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/150910.jpg

meddo

Apr 16 2010, 12:50

Not so flattering, DaBulls are faster in race trim by 0,5 a second, Schumster is on the same level. Even Ferrari with fragile rearend rockets is faster.

Lights

Apr 16 2010, 12:51

QUOTE (dsfgdshg @ Apr 16 2010, 14:07)

I have a feeling that no one can beat us here.

Don't base this on practice times. Although someone can always have a feeling.

werks prototype

Apr 16 2010, 13:07

QUOTE (dsfgdshg @ Apr 16 2010, 13:07)

I have a feeling that no one can beat us here.

Nah. At least three teams as fast or faster than the MP4-25. Best to heed Hamiltons words.

QUOTE

"The car does feel good, but our pace looks pretty similar to some of the other cars on long runs. Everyone talks about us having a straight-line advantage, but that's not true - other cars have the same speed as us at the end of the straight"

http://en.espnf1.com/china/motorsport/story/14665.html

werks prototype

Apr 16 2010, 13:08

I just hope they get the specific wing settings on the 25 just right for the circuit. And they don't over-cook it either way.

werks prototype

Apr 16 2010, 13:23

Very close shave getting new parts out for the 25 from England!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/apr/1...olcano-eruption

PNSD

Apr 16 2010, 13:25

RedBulls look a few tenths quicker in race trim... But we look matched with Ferrari and Merc

!

OwenC93

Apr 16 2010, 13:27

Never mind.

karlth

Apr 16 2010, 13:45

QUOTE (PNSD @ Apr 16 2010, 05:25)

RedBulls look a few tenths quicker in race trim... But we look matched with Ferrari and Merc

!

Agreed.

Gareth

Apr 16 2010, 13:50

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

karlth

Apr 16 2010, 13:52

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 05:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

We had this discussion last year, only then it was called KERS and not F-duct. It seems like McLaren can only stay competitive because of a gizmo.

In reality though I think it is a question of compromises. If the team had spent less time on either gadget they would simply have placed more emphasis on the suspension or aerodynamics.

nawz

Apr 16 2010, 13:53

We are second fastest. I am very confident on that. I wonder what will happen in qualifying. If we make it to the top 3 or top 4 I am very sure we can secure a first or second atleast!

Mika Mika

Apr 16 2010, 13:53

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

I think the gain is over estimated - as with KERS - the packaging will no doubt kill a bit of efficcency. Big fat anavil wing etc,

Lights

Apr 16 2010, 13:53

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 15:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

Surely, for the rest, they are lacking. Hell, even with a perfectly designed F-duct, Red Bull and perhaps Ferrari are still ahead of them. They will seriously have to improve a lot if they want to keep fighting upfront as Ferrari and Red Bull have their F-duct lined up shortly.

Gareth

Apr 16 2010, 13:58

QUOTE (karlth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:52)

We had this discussion last year, only then it was called KERS and not F-duct. It seems like McLaren can only stay competitive because of a gizmo.

In reality though I think it is a question of compromises. If the team had spent less time on either gadget they would simply have placed more emphasis on the suspension or aerodynamics.

QUOTE (Mika Mika @ Apr 16 2010, 14:53)

I think the gain is over estimated - as with KERS - the packaging will no doubt kill a bit of efficcency. Big fat anavil wing etc,

I understand what you're both saying here on the compromises from packaging. But I can see that a lot more clearly with KERS than I can with this. The weight of KERS, along with its size, to me presented a much bigger packaging issue than the F-duct. Whereas I can buy the idea that a lot of costly compromises had to be made on the 24 in order to get the benefit of KERS, I can't see many equivalent compromises to get the benefit of the F-duct.

Which is a bit more worrying to me.

nawz

Apr 16 2010, 14:02

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:58)

I understand what you're both saying here on the compromises from packaging. But I can see that a lot more clearly with KERS than I can with this. The weight of KERS, along with its size, to me presented a much bigger packaging issue than the F-duct. Whereas I can buy the idea that a lot of costly compromises had to be made on the 24 in order to get the benefit of KERS, I can't see many equivalent compromises to get the benefit of the F-duct.

Which is a bit more worrying to me.

Yeah I also think if we used kers it would be a hell lot more refined and atleast twice as efficient. I wonder if Mclaren is still developing KERS just incase?

learningtobelost

Apr 16 2010, 14:03

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

I suspect it's all a bit 'chinese whispers' with the advantage the F-duct actually gives. Teams were saying 1-2 tenths at the beginning of the season, they are now saying it's three times that. Given all of the talk about it not working below a certain speed (100mph was it?) and how few decent straights there are at modern F1 circuits, it seems a bit far fetched that it would bring the team 1/2 a second. Besides, Vettel spent most of last season bitching about the KERS cars (axe to grind?) and Ant hasn't been involved in F1 for a while now, perhaps they are not the most reliable sources?

rodlamas

Apr 16 2010, 14:04

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 10:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

Mclaren designed a car aorund that. Probably most of the armchair experts can't understand that. That's why most of the teams couldn't use KERS last year, they could nor produce a competitive design given the set of boundaries KERS had. But at the same time Mclaren and to a certain point Ferrari, managed to produce one.

But if you think that the F-Duct is as simple as pressing a button on the wheel that gives you an extra 2,000 rpm, there will be no purpose in discussing, as there is no purpose in talking about how the MP4/25 would have been withou a key part around which it has been designed.

karlth

Apr 16 2010, 14:04

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 05:58)

I understand what you're both saying here on the compromises from packaging. But I can see that a lot more clearly with KERS than I can with this. The weight of KERS, along with its size, to me presented a much bigger packaging issue than the F-duct. Whereas I can buy the idea that a lot of costly compromises had to be made on the 24 in order to get the benefit of KERS, I can't see many equivalent compromises to get the benefit of the F-duct.

There probably aren't many mechanical compromises unlike KERS but as Newey hinted at it has to be integrated into the aerodynamics of the car. It affects the airflow over the rear of the car, something the teams are tweaking by mm over a whole season. Probably it would be a question of which is easier to make, aerodynamic changes or mechanical.

I don't have any particular worries about McLaren slipping back because of this mostly because I think that the McLaren is the most underdeveloped car, it has the greatest potential for increased performance.

f1rules

Apr 16 2010, 14:10

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

opponents will talk the fduct up mclaren will talk it down, the truth is probably in between

bonjon1979

Apr 16 2010, 14:22

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

Same could be said of Brawn's double diffuser last year.

werks prototype

Apr 16 2010, 14:25

QUOTE (Gareth @ Apr 16 2010, 14:50)

Just a point on all the chat about what the F-duct is worth in time. Vettel mentions 5 tenths. Ant Davidson (I understand) mentioned 4 to 6 tenths. If you add that kind of time to the McLaren lap times, you have a car that's basically midfield and fighting with the Renault and Force India's of this world.

So: had they not come up with this one clever, trick, idea, would we have been looking at a midfield McLaren at the start of the season in the MP4-25?

Potentially. But I don't get the impression that this car has an inbuilt fundamental flaw, it is different, but not flawed. Which was clearly the case last year and the thing that KERS and an extreme development programme was forced to compensate for.

It is difficult to define. It is clear that McLaren placed a great emphasis pre-season on refining what is afterall a very cheap and simple concept in the F-Duct. Was this done at the expense of other aspects? Will other teams be able to achieve similar results stalling their own wings with limited development options? Time will tell as to whether or not the McLaren gamble this season has paid off.

However you could argue, that a number of the top teams are now developing their cars in the direction of the MP4-25. Mercedes with their rumoured B-Spec, incorporating the longer McLaren like wheel base and the various intentions amongst other teams to get an F-Duct like device up and running asap.

I suppose the hope for the Mclaren fan is that whilst these teams divert resources inorder to emulate aspects of the 25, the 25 can be further refined toward something similar in performance to the Red Bull. (I emphasise Red Bull because the Ferrari has simply tracked the development of elements of last years RB and is now doing the same with this years McLaren making it a bit of a mongrel in my eyes)

All the teams have their little tricks. Watching Rosberg making gains (2/10ths according to the BBC) by pumping away on the old brake bias lever today, in much the same way that Jenson did last season. Ferrari adjusting ride height during the pit-stop (neatly explained by Horner today).

I think at this stage the cooling solution, the reliability and the refined nature of the McLaren F-Duct pre-Europe gives the team a great platform from which to build. The only team I envy in terms of overall concept at the moment is Red Bull.

maverick69

Apr 16 2010, 15:02

QUOTE (werks prototype @ Apr 16 2010, 15:25)

Potentially. But I don't get the impression that this car has an inbuilt fundamental flaw, it is different, but not flawed. Which was clearly the case last year and the thing that KERS and an extreme development programme was forced to compensate for.

It is difficult to define. It is clear that McLaren placed a great emphasis pre-season on refining what is afterall a very cheap and simple concept in the F-Duct. Was this done at the expense of other aspects? Will other teams be able to achieve similar results stalling their own wings with limited development options? Time will tell as to whether or not the McLaren gamble this season has paid off.

However you could argue, that a number of the top teams are now developing their cars in the direction of the MP4-25. Mercedes with their rumoured B-Spec, incorporating the longer McLaren like wheel base and the various intentions amongst other teams to get an F-Duct like device up and running asap.

I suppose the hope for the Mclaren fan is that whilst these teams divert resources inorder to emulate aspects of the 25, the 25 can be further refined toward something similar in performance to the Red Bull. (I emphasise Red Bull because the Ferrari has simply tracked the development of elements of last years RB and is now doing the same with this years McLaren making it a bit of a mongrel in my eyes)

All the teams have their little tricks. Watching Rosberg making gains (2/10ths according to the BBC) by pumping away on the old brake bias lever today, in much the same way that Jenson did last season. Ferrari adjusting ride height during the pit-stop (neatly explained by Horner today).;)

I think at this stage the cooling solution, the reliability and the refined nature of the McLaren F-Duct pre-Europe gives the team a great platform from which to build. The only team I envy in terms of overall concept at the moment is Red Bull.

Good post

gyptian

Apr 16 2010, 15:03

Sauber has the F-Duct and good top speed now and I dont see much diff. in their laptimes.... didn't they also use it in Malaysia?

OwenC93

Apr 16 2010, 15:09

QUOTE (gyptian @ Apr 16 2010, 16:03)

Sauber has the F-Duct and good top speed now and I dont see much diff. in their laptimes.... didn't they also use it in Malaysia?

Only in practice.

Obi Offiah

Apr 17 2010, 03:02

P3 just starting. The vent on the forward part of the right sidepod on Jenson's car is closed, the left hand vent is open.

Obi Offiah

Apr 17 2010, 04:03

Mclaren running cooling (ducts at the front of the sidepod and around the exhaust) on the left side of their cars.

Obi Offiah

Apr 17 2010, 04:04

F-Duct offically called the RW80

sydsvenskan

Apr 17 2010, 05:46

QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Apr 17 2010, 06:04)

F-Duct offically called the RW80

No that is incorrect

Mercedes version of the F-duct is called the RW80

Lights

Apr 17 2010, 06:07

Button apparently still has gearbox issues. Can't they fix parts of the gearbox within the parc ferme rules?

Pampalini

Apr 17 2010, 06:17

Just woke up- I had a terrible nightmare: despite all the good practice results and the supposed big F-duct advantage both Lewis and Jenson started from the last row of the grid because by mistake the Chinase authorities put them into jail before Q1.

Now I'm awaken, and I can see it was just a nightmare

nawz

Apr 17 2010, 06:37

These false neutral reports are rather worrying...

Only occurs on out and in laps apparently - bbc ted kravitz asked mclaren engineers.

f1rules

Apr 17 2010, 06:45

well well well, maybe redbull didnt change anything but suddenly they look human, coincidence i have a 100 euro this week on hami at ods 6 for vic. so go hami

Sophie

Apr 17 2010, 06:46

Yeah I dont think its too much to worry about. I am very impressed with the pace so far

Mostly from Lewis

f1rules

Apr 17 2010, 07:02

well not that human

nawz

Apr 17 2010, 07:03

I wonder if these minor issues may build up into something big. Nevertheless mclaren ftw

Hypnotise

Apr 17 2010, 07:04

Does Lewis have a chance?,what happened? he was so fast

Lights

Apr 17 2010, 07:06

Well, all the speculation over the last 2 weeks has resulted in P5 and P6, half second behind Red Bull.

Nothing really changed since Bahrain.

gyptian

Apr 17 2010, 07:06

QUOTE (Hypnotise @ Apr 17 2010, 09:04)

Does Lewis have a chance?,what happened? he was so fast

his pole lap was quite untidy in first and last sectors...

he will have to race really hard to get podium....

Pingu Pi

Apr 17 2010, 07:08

QUOTE (Lights @ Apr 17 2010, 08:06)

Well, all the speculation over the last 2 weeks has resulted in P5 and P6, half second behind Red Bull.

Nothing really changed since Bahrain.

the car is faster than that showed. they went faster in Q2 with more fuel on board. wasnt a good end to the lap and the gear problem into the first corner didnt help either.

very big shame, i think lewis had 2nd here without them problems. car looks very fast.

personally unless lewis gets to 3rd at the start i cant see a chance of winning without something happening. but this is F1, and theres always a chance of some mayhem...

Raincoat

Apr 17 2010, 07:09

QUOTE (Lights @ Apr 17 2010, 07:06)

Well, all the speculation over the last 2 weeks has resulted in P5 and P6, half second behind Red Bull.

Nothing really changed since Bahrain.

Wait you think something had changed?

Cheap Wine Alesi

Apr 17 2010, 07:09

dissapointing performance considering the expectations.

nawz

Apr 17 2010, 07:11

I personally think we had "excess" fuel which made a marginal difference. Nevertheless we have a car that can match redbull and i am very confident on that. CMON MCLAREN!