Interesting, thanks for the info! I always saw the - IMO beautiful - livery of 1997-2005 as something uniquely Mclaren, allthough I'm sure it also helped with the German perception of "Silberpfeile", due to the silver and of course the big star on the nose. The present livery is also excellent. I hope McLaren will again come up with something that is amazing (in a positive sense, not like the zippered BAR in 1999) in 2012.

As for the logo, IIRC I heard somewhere the present logo is supposed to represent a stylised Kiwi bird?

I have heard that as well, but that was after I left..... maybe it does, but it has a much closer connection to the older rooftops

I did read that .pdf too, some serious (bull)sh.t there. I imagine for that design price they had to come up with some fancy explanation. Though I dislike that new Pepsi logo, but it was a multi-million dollars design job.

But I like the McLaren font and logo, I think from that red 'rocket' logo comes the Rocket Red colour name, right?

Are the drivers going to use the new symbol on their racing gear?

its not new

I think he was meaning the back 2 back champions design.

I don´t think so...Button has won his title for Brawn GP not for McLaren. Yeah 2 titles on the badge but not both McLaren titles...

I don't see what so great about that anyway. At least half of what they brag about with that logo has got nothing whatsoever to do with McLaren.

http://hunnylander.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/coolpix-1/

It's everything to do with McLaren. McLaren has signed the latest two world champions.

... but only one of them was driving a McLaren and it's a Mclaren logo, right?

I guess they couldn't resist, but for class, try again. OTOH, no big deal, it's only a badge.

The latest two world champions will be driving at McLaren, for this is the logo, not for that both won it at McLaren.

No-one did this before, if it isn't special for you what it is? Two latins in a latin team?

But Button´s McLaren has the Number One on the nose anyway...

No, the west lights packaging is even mentioned in this article of the independent from Sunday, 1 September 1996. This was months before the mp4/12 even existed. So the claim, the car existed first and West copied the colors is obviously wrong.

Dennis ready for life after his divorce

At first, West was unsure, what colors they should use, but at the end, they went for the grayish black und white (not exactly silver) color scheme of the lights packaging, because it matched better to the silver color of Mercedes. They could go for the traditional red und white livery, but they didn’t.
Even according to the article about the silver arrows on the official website of Dailmler, the livery presented mainly the colors of the Sponsor West .

Die klassischen Silberpfeile von Mercedes-Benz

So, the “unique” Mclaren livery is more or less a combination of West and Mercedes colors.
Of course you can say, the red white livery of the Marlboro years was a McLaren livery with some influence of Marlboro. But when sponsor colors are dominating the livery, then it’s called a sponsor livery. Interestingly, when the mp4/12 was first introduced in a “clean” shape without sponsors, the car was painted in orange.
Apart from that, it’s Mercedes that has a tradition in using a silver color, not McLaren.
When West left after 2005, the McLaren livery was changed to a more silver or chrome looking color scheme.

Liveries – 15 years of McLaren Mercedes F1 partnership

Sure, but the number traditionally always marks the WDC, regardless which team he drives for during his reign. Logically it's totally independent of the team. Of course that doesn't stop the marketing weasels expoiting it....

Long time ago, I apologise, didnt realise the Lights cigarettes was out back then. Certainly when I did my proposal with some co-workers, I wasn't aware of that. We just had the normal packets. As I stated we were using Silver, Red, possibly Black/Dark Grey which were fundimentally McLaren colours and were already being used on the Marlboro cars (the Silver, on pit equiptment and trucks). Silver was introduced for Mercedes-Benz, but it was a McLaren project as such. It was very convenient this worked with both Mercedes and West, but believe it, this was/is a McLaren livery, not a West and not a Mercedes, although it used the same three colours for all three partners.

It was #1 point on the brief that it was to be a McLaren identity and be suitable to use on non West or non Mercedes branding (eg West Competition F3000, various Karts, TAG McLaren Audio branding, McLaren F1 GTR (BMW!) Adrenaline programme etc etc).

Doesnt really bother me if you dont believe me, regardless of whats on the internet (just as my post) but I can assure you this was the case. I saw the brief, I helped with a design a little to follow the brief (didnt get choosen though).

btw IIRC The 1997 livery was already designed when the Orange car was launched. Clever way of getting two launches out of one car.

I wonder about how accurate this claim by the Daimler website was. If the livery mainly represented West, then why did it not use the colours West has always been known for -dark red and white - and instead used the colours of what seems to be a somewhat obscure secondary product of West (which apparently also had dark blue-and-white cigarette packaging as well as light blue-and white packaging, examples you posted earlier in this thread)? Choosing the silver colour calls up association with Mercedes and its classic Silberpfeile IMO, and the association with West is made pretty much only because it is written on the car. If they had presented the car without sponsor decals but with its full livery, how many people would have gone "this is clearly a West livery"? How many went, "ah, Mercedes-colours"? Compare this to when another race car gets launched in Marlboro's "barcode" livery - everybody will know who the sponsor is.

When did West introduce the lights package anyway? Was this way before 1996?


IIRC the orange car did have all the sponsor decals, including West. It was never meant to race in this colour. If a sponsor colour was dominating the livery, then it was the silver of Mercedes. Not the "silver of West", which was always associated with dark red-and-white.

The red white of the Marlboro years from McLaren was never a unique McLaren livery - in F1 the exact same livery was already used one year early from Mclaren, by BRM in 1973. And likely it was used on some US racing cars before that, too, and in any case the same livery has appeared on many other racing cars (including F1s like Alfa Romeo in the early 80s). Truly a sponsor livery, one which is instantly recognizable regardless of decals. The only Marlboro livery that is different is the Ferrari one, where you might call it a Ferrari livery with some influence from Marlboro. Contrary to the Marlboro years from McLaren - bog-standard Marlboro stuff - and also to the 1997-2005 livery from McLaren.

The not inconsiderable amount of black on the car was not from Mercedes nor West, anyway.

Strangely, Mercedes thinks, that the silver parts of the livery represents them as engine supplier and co-owner (40 % shareholder) of the McLaren team. Well, someone should tell them, that they not even have to pay for most of the bills (but have no say in the team), it’s not even their “silver” color on the car.
And you said yourself, that McLaren's logo was Red and Black, Mercedes was Silver and Black and West was Red and White (initally). So according to you, the McLaren colors in the livery were red and black, now you are saying, silver was used fundamentally as a McLaren color.

But the claim about the red white colors of West is just plain wrong, at least no one in germany (including the german based Reemtsma GmbH) knows about it . It’s true, that the standard (original) packaging is using these colours, but West decided to go for the lights packaging for good reasons. First of all, a red/white livery would have been looked pretty much like the livery of the former sponsor Marlboro. Particularly in marketing terms, not a great idea.
And by using the color scheme of the lights, it was easier to benefit from the silver arrow myth by presenting the car and the cigarette packaging in a homogeneous look in an advertisement.

Zakspeed (who are a German team) knew plenty about red white colors of West. And they had no problem running their car together with Marlboro-liveried cars (the red from Marlboro is very different from the red of West, anyway).

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Zaksp...than_Palmer.jpg
http://www.mcz.com/f1/team/zakspeed.htm

We are not talking about Zakspeed. And in contrary to Mercedes, I never ever heard of a Zakspeed “silver arrow” myth.

And it’s not only the Daimler website (who should know), it’s on every website (if you use google).

For example:
http://wapedia.mobi/de/McLaren_%28Formel_1%29
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_%28Formel_1%29
http://www.uni-protokolle.de/Lexikon/McLaren.html
http://formel1saison.de/history_mclaren.shtml
http://www.formel1place.at/?m1=7&m2=3&zielid=11

and so on.
But you can try to find a least -one- link, that proves your claim about the red white colors. I doubt you will find any.

ThomFi, you are symbolising all that is wrong with internet forums.

We have heard from Andy Blackmore who worked for McLaren and was part of the design team who worked on the colour scheme.

Yet you insist on "links".

FFS!

Zakspeed is the first F1 team to feature West colours, with a livery dictated by West as their only major sponsor. And it was clearly red-and-white, I have given enough links for that. Of course Zakspeed is not a "silver arrow", they were a mobile cigarette package in the same vein as the usual Marlboro cars (outside Ferrari) - without any silver and without Mercedes. Since Zakspeed is the only known case of West colours in F1 besides Mclaren, they are very relevant to the discussion and I'm certainly talking about them.

There is an example of a matching West package on this ebay page: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:FxzNS...=nl&ct=clnk

On another page, I read this "Beide Versionen (Päckchen und Dose) sind in den für West typischen Farben rot, weiß und schwarz designed"
"The typical West colours: red, white and black". (Black being for the letters, presumably). http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:rOtjt...=nl&ct=clnk

Well, in this case you confuse me with some of this kids, who gain their knowledge from youtube videos, statistics and internet sites. I’am 40 years old and possibly even older than you.

I followed F1 at this time very closely, especially in the case of the so called rebirth of the silver arrows. And at this time, there where a lot of articles and interviews with Mercedes and West spokesmen’s about this issue. West is a brand of the german based reemtsma company by the way. And it was always clear, that West went for a grayish black white livery, not a red white one.

At least for me, the story about the red white colors is a fabrication. The first time, i heard such a story in all that years, was some days before on this board.

People even claimed, that West copied the colors of the car, ignoring the fact, that the lights packaging existed long before the car.

ATM_Andy, how much F1 teams are working on 'engineering the driver' these days?

corrected yout comment, but thanks There were a number of designs submitted, some internal, some external + I didnt have any hand in the final design (which was better)

i'm gone now..

And you gain your knowledge from various iterations of Wikipedia...

Please stop directing posts at each other and keep it on topic - McLaren Winter Thread - MP4-25

Ahh man, I'm almost out of my head!!

I can't wait to see what MP4-25 is going to look like, and more importantly, go like!!!

19 days to go.

they promissed us pics of the 25 on twitter, come on mclaren get your finger out your ass I hope Mclaren and Mercedes will fight to the end. Leaving ferrari and Red Bull Who, behind. Actually i didnt believe in Mercedes, but after they signed schumacher im a lot more positive. His technical skills and knowledge will be a huge gain. Ferrari and Mclaren has state of the art simulater. Mercedes has schumacher

EDIT

The first test will be crazy, i quess we can exspect new cars from all at that test. I might as well call in sick know in advance from the 1-3 feb.

That would be great!

I wonder how much justice the diffuser on the 25 will behold? Any news on that ATM_Andy?

Maybe you can give us a "Justice Ranking"... 1 being a Parking Warden - 10 being almighty God

10 it is then surely.

I have a vague memory of the phrase "5-shadow diffuser" from ATM_Andy. Anyone remember?

Sounds anyway.

Nice. We'll need to think up a new nick name once we see this thing. It's tough to beat the 'Silver Donkey' though.

Yeah Silver Donkey was a great name. Not so easy to name a fast car though, let's hope we have a real problem with that this year...

I posted a link to the official site of the Daimler AG in the first place, this is hardly wikipedia. And I posted the links above to prove, that it’s the easiest thing in the world to find other sources as well. It was just a question of seconds.
Sources about a unique McLaren livery are non-existent, inside and outside the internet.

Apart from that, I know what I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. And if the story about the red white colors (in the case of McLaren of course, we are not talking about Zakspeed) are true, every person including all representatives of Mercedes and West were lying or totally clueless.

At least it seems that Mercedes and West had a totally different opinion about the colors of the car and what the colours represent.

"Justices", symbol Ju, has now been ratified as the new SI unit of bodywork downforce.

It ranges from 0Ju (equivalent to 1 WMSC imperial measurement) all the way through to ∞Ju

love it

"I’ve been closely following the development of our 2010 challenger, the MP4-25, and I think it’s going to be a state-of-the-art car that will enable both of us to consistently fight for victories.” (LH, 2009 November)

i hope itll be fastest car.

So mp4-25 aka SOTA

Hahaha

LH's opinion about the MP4/25 by april will be more important. Somehow I doubt he said back in november 2008:"I think the MP4/24 is going to be a shit car that will handle like a boat and barely allow me to score any points at all until it gets much improved".

What the drivers say now doesn't matter, they haven't even driven it yet and even during winter testing comments are often notably subdued compared to what they really would like to say.

Found something interesting on twitter. I found these pictures on tweet photo belonging to a user Carldavidsonf1

Link

So it seems Lewis may have twitter, although the Carldavidsonf1 account no longer exists on twiter.

So is that Lewis' Twitter ?

His middle name is Carl

If it is, what's the point ?

thanks for the link

lovely to see lewis on holiday.

any pictures of mclaren, lewis or even jenson are much appreciated through the 'cold' winter that is the off season

http://twitter.com/LewisHamiltonF1

I see he's put a picture of his McLaren up with the No.22

Good lad

I posted that McLaren were going to launch on the 25th - however its been reported (leaked) that Merc are going to launch on the 25th. Maybe they found out McLaren were going to launch and leaked their date to send McLaren a message that their 25th date for the MP4- 25 is already taken

At least Mercedes is the engine-supplier for McLaren...I don´t see any "vendetta" between McLaren and Mercedes...

They have to work together...