Don't forget that McLaren was just running more downforce than they would normally run at this track. It doesn't mean they ran more downforce than Ferrari or Red Bull. It could be, be no guarantee. Aeroefficiency i.e. comes into play

I agree that McLaren were faster at the end in the hands of Hammy. But in the hands of Button, I don't think so. As I said Alonso was in Button tail another 10 laps after he was passed. I will explain in more details down in my post.



You irritated me with that "I think that eventually Hamilton would have been able to take Alonso.". I say to you again. Please take off those Hamilton/McLaren glasses. In the last stint Alonso would have not pass Hammy as Hammy would have not pass Alonso. The backmarkers were decisive in both cases. They decide the order of the podium. Please no fantasies with Hammy would have pass Alonso. Lewis admitted in the press conference, and he knows better than you. He saw that Alonso was matching him and he knows that you can't overtake a car in this conditions, not even if you have a F-Duct.


Man you can't cut Lewis tyres past posting in every thread. This Hammy tyre issue whatever is truth or not shall not be discussed here honestly.


What relevant is this Lewis being able to follow Alonso closely between the first and second pit-stops with Mclaren's boys will have pass Alonso on track anyways?
First of all i don't wear Ferrari glasses because I'm not a Ferrari fan. Secondly on lap 60 we saw 2 images with Alonso and Hammy tyres and Hammy's tyres were a little bit grained that Alonso's. Third, after Button passed Alonso, 10 laps they were both doing low 1.19 and 1.18. As Alonso's tyres were a little bit better what make you think that something would have changed their performance on track in the last laps, when until then it was very close?
Look here how both Button and Alonso dropped bit by bit to 1.18 and after lap 65 Alonso suddenly go back to 1.19.

So it is very simple. Alonso backed off. The guy has an engine situation... Whether McLaren were a little bit faster at the end or not, it is not important, because you can't overtake a car in this conditions. So please no more McLaren boys will have overtook Alonso anyways....


So as I explained you ahead, Hamilton only won because of backmarkers. It is simple as Alonso won in Bahrain because of Vettel's problems. Without this qualifying in pole and your lovely "Hamilton's tyres management" will have been dust and smoke.

I don't know, it didn't look like they were, but it will be interesting if someone help us with this question.

They were running the f-duct, I remember DC commentating on how he hadn't noticed the opening on the engine cover. Definately running it.

One of the commentators said that the hard tyres of Alonso and Hamilton were about the same level of degredation - both grained - but button's were in quite a bit better contdition.

Not arguing about who was better just what was said.

I think Fernando was so down at the end of the race because he felt the car was fast enough to win, and he hadn't done it. But he mismanaged the backmarkers.

With Lewis' pass it was suicide for Fernando to try a pass on Buemi at the hairpin, because that was always likely to give him a slow start onto the straight and leave him vulnerable. And then pulling right so soon and leaving Lewis with Buemi's tow was another mistake.

And with Jenson he needed to stay on line after passing the HRT and slow Jense with a block using his one allowed move to the inside. Instead he pulled to the inside immediately and left Jense the line and his momentum.

Mistakes. It was a case of not maximising the car, which did look good.

Ferrari set for 'further 0.7secs boost'

"According to BBC Sport, work on the exhaust-blown rear end which is similar to Red Bull's is nearly complete.

'Valencia's demands are similar to those of Montreal, although it does demand a little more downforce. So the Ferrari should be set to be competitive again anyway.

'But it is likely to be even more so, given that it receives a major aerodynamic upgrade that the team is very excited about based on what they have seen in the wind tunnel. Central to this is a new Red Bull-like exhaust-blown rear end.

'It is widely believed that an intrinsic part of the Red Bull's stunning performance to date has been this feature, wherein the exhaust gas scavenges the airflow around the diffuser and rear beam wing much faster and more efficiently.

'Rumours are that it is worth as much as 0.7secs per lap - coincidentally about the average qualifying deficit Ferrari has had to Red Bull to date.

'Ferrari are said to have been staggered when they saw in the tunnel just how much this feature improved things.'"

Full article here

In F1 finding 0.7 seconds is a quantum leap in performance, but it can be done. The jump McLaren took last year from Silverstone to the Germany GP and Hungary, was around the 0.7 seconds mark, depending on which pundit or commentator you chose to believe. If Ferrari and Williams gain significant performance by adopting the Red Bull exhaust system, then all the other teams will incorporate their own version and fast track this upgrade. IMO a genuine 0.7 performance boost would put Ferrari at the head of the field.

I blamed Alonso for all his mistakes that he did this year. However I can't blame him for nothing in Canada race.
With HRT he's speed was so compromised that wherever would have stayed Button would have passed. I rewatched the race yesterday and trust me it was a shot from the helicopter and I know what I saw. There are a lot of Ferrari fans that criticized him until now, but no one put a finger to him in Canada.

With Buemi he did not know that Buemi will gonna pit. He would have not try for sure. However not because of Buemi he lost 1st place to Lewis. Still, I reckon that this would have made his life much easier...

It's a quantum leap in one update, but considering the updates Ferrari brought to the last races, it isn't that big. According to Whitmarsh, McLaren tries to bring 0.15-0.25 seconds per race. So it's a 3-4 race upgrade at once; exactly what they failed to do at once

I don't know if the McLaren can maintain this to the end honestly...
i will be glad if Ferrari will bring even +0.500 trust me...

2 tenths per race is something achieveable if you consider they are evaluating a new solution every 20 minutes on average.

And I really think Ferrari can find 0.7 from one race into another. But the last two times they attempted at doing something closer to that, they failed.

The principle of diminishing returns means that as time progresses it will become harder to achieve the same amount of gain...

If you keep the same rate of evaluation (1 every 20 minutes) over a season, it follows that as the season progresses, the gain found per race will thus diminish as per your development relative to the curve...

Amazing how many people apparently buy the teams corporate lines.

Truth is, it's like the weather forecast. Yes, there is a vast amount of scientific methods used to predict the weather, but still the only 100 percent reliable forecast is to look out of the window, if you see a raindrop up in the sky it's safe to say that it will wet the ground seconds later.

Almost every team talks their development work up. Then sometimes they get it right and sometimes not. The proof is on the timesheets and there only, everything else is guesswork.

McLaren has every right to brag about their 2010 season so far, but just 18 months ago the basically people same got everything so wrong that it still beggars belief.

Spain's AS newspaper reports that the update will be worth between 0.3 and 0.4 seconds per lap and will include a revised rear suspension. There is no mention about the mega diffuser though. Where is AFCA when you need him?

Haha; wow you really are quite inane. Firstly, I doubt you even looked at the link I provided for you to the FIA's speed trap info. If you had you would have seen that the drivers from the same teams (that were on similar set-ups) had similar speeds. I think its far to assume that this can be taken to omit any significant anomalies aided by external effects.

The figures you are sprouting about people giving McLaren a 10-12 kph top speed advantage were in fact predictions (before the qualifying). They ran more wing in the end meaning they actually had a relatively more 'average' top speed (which I have previously explained to you ).

I don't want to get into a discussion about McLaren's F-duct with you as this is the F10 thread, but as previously mentioned the F-duct (although clearly aiding McLaren) will not be the cardinal reason to McLaren's success. Also I like how you say 'silly F-duct' , a little bitter at all?

Speed trap data for qualifying (which I assume will hardly be affected by slipstreaming) here: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/201...speed_trap.html

Seems pretty clear that McLaren used the F-duct to run more wing and had similar straight line speed to the Ferrari.

I'll believe it when I see it.

PS I kinda want to see it!

Well I stand by the fact that I think in the later stages of the race (if Alonso was ahead) then Lewis at the bare minimum would have been able to keep up with him and make some attempts at an overtake. I find it really strange that you take it as gospel that if Alonso was ahead he wouldn't/couldn't have been overtaken. But I guess that just comes down to differing opinions. However, I do agree that the back-markers were decisive in allowing Lewis and Jenson to get ahead. But that's not to say they wouldn't have had other opportunities to pass had the back-markers not been involved.

I think you are not quite understanding what Lewis meant in the press conference. He was saying that both him and Jenson were able to capitalise on the effect the back-markers had on Alonso, effectively they took the opportunity that arose. But he wasn't saying that the only reason they were able to get buy Alonso was because of the back-markers. Understand? Just look at the race in Turkey the McLarens followed the Red Bulls closely for multiple laps and Lewis constantly tried to overtake them. In the end he capitalised on the opportunity that arose (their crash) but no-one knows what would have happened if they hadn't of crashed.


The same reason you thought it was important to bring up that Alonso was able to follow Button after the pass.


Did you actually watch the race? There was lots of overtaking in the midfield by cars of similar ability. Thus why is it implausible to you that a McLaren could overtake a Ferrari in the later part of the race (or vice-versa). In fact just before Hamiltons second stop it looked like Alonso would have made an overtaking move stick on Lewis (if he hadn't have pitted). Thus proving it is possible.

Very true. But we have no knowledge about the time period effecting the returns of the development of the MP4-25. Thus if on average McLaren are bringing 0.2 seconds worth of development per race then over a season this might diminish to 0.19 seconds per race or 0.05 seconds per race as it isn't clear what the gradient of depreciation is.

Absolutely.. Hence why I added "as per your development relative to the curve..." - I was trying to get across that if you are early on the curve, the chances of maintaining a decent gain per race is better than if you are near the upper end of the scale where everything begins to flatten out... I would also expect that as you get towards the end of a season, the rate of development also slows (evaluating less updates over a given time) as resources are switched over to the next car..

Really, this is all obvious anyway, but at this stage of the season, I would expect a team like Mclaren to keep bringing approximately 2 tenths to every race.. its only when we get to the last third of the season that all this starts to become more and more relevant..

Sorry I read your post to quick . But ye, absolutely agree .

Spain's AS newspaper reports that the updated F10 will be between three and four tenths per lap quicker than the basic specification raced in Turkey and Canada.

The report also said the change represents a fundamentally new aerodynamic direction for the car, opening up a new avenue for subsequent development.

"The most important improvement in Valencia is not what we achieve there, but the way it opens us developments to be stronger for the remainder of the season," Fernando Alonso is quoted as confirming.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=373061

So does that mean that the current F10 has less room for development? Or was it always going to be more of an interim car until everything was perfect on the update? The question I'm wondering is have Ferrari been conservative with the updates? These were due a while ago and it seems that they have either had to totally re-design the redesign to incorporate the F-duct. What I find hard to believe, is that despite other teams bringing in all of the updates that they have, and the only significant update that Ferrari have brought is the F-duct, that this car is still even competitve considering it is virtually the same car that won in Bahrain.

I suppose the best news is that after Valencia, they are now in a position to be bringing updates on a more regular basis. That is why Mclaren have come on stronger because of the updates and Ferrari have slipped back due to lack of them.

I do feel a little more positive about the situation now.

Lets hope they work.

This is interesting, because I have had a sense now for a couple of years that Ferrari seem to start the season with a car that it pretty high up on its development curve - and as a result, the in season developments are "less" than the competition..

Mclaren and Renault in particular seem to start their seasons with a car that has more untapped potential so to speak, and as such spend a significant amount of resource over the season improving the car...

I guess with the limited resource agreements, there are arguments for where and when is best to allocate developmental resources.. In the off season in the hope of achieving an advantage for the early races which then only needs to be "maintained" - or during the season for a catchup & mid/late surge in the season...

If this report about new avenues of development is accurate, then this will be significant for the later part of the season and for the fundamental concepts driving next years car..

3 or 4 tenths? McLarens is planing a new package to Silverstone which is supposed to be half (!!!!) a second faster than the actual car. Anyway they brought new elements (floor, diffuser and wing) to canada and they are planning to bring something also to valencia. How can they manage it?
I'm optimistic but I fear a little bit that it won't be enough :S But let's hope.

folks

Please understand that the gains for the upcoming forecast are based in simulations and in the current car set up.
Can be more or can be less
Normally the simulations are quite conservative.
What Alonso aid is with the new upgrades new ways for the set up will be available and further gains can be made
we are in the game
nothing is over

The regret for a victory that slipped away had not disappeared when the team awoke this morning. Those still in Montreal and those already back home in Italy all share the same feeling: that yesterday was a missed opportunity. At the same time, it is clear the championship is still very open, especially the fight for the Drivers’ title. If Fernando had won yesterday, which was a possibility, he would be leading the classification.

Now however, there needs to be a step up in quality in terms of performance, so as to be competitive at every type of track, not just at those that suit the current configuration of the F10, as was the case in Bahrain, Monaco and Canada. With this in mind, at Maranello, the work is going on practically day and night to be as well prepared as possible for the Valencia race, an event that will be very important in terms of setting a course for the rest of the season. The European Grand Prix will see the debut of a significant update package and others will follow in immediately at the next races. From Valencia to the summer break, there are four races in six weeks and everything can still change.

Massa and Alonso both left Canada last night already and it’s easy to imagine that neither man was in a particularly good mood. Felipe seems to have a jinx at this Grand Prix, given that in the last three of them he has never had a “normal” race. Yesterday, he could have good a good result given the pace he showed, but two collisions, neither of them his fault relegated him to almost the back of the pack. The penalty he got for speeding in the pit lane, even if it did not affect the final result, was a further blow. It was a different story for Fernando. His third podium with the Reds is cause for satisfaction as it reverses the trend of two races, Monaco and Turkey, where the points haul was decidedly meagre, but the regret at the win slipping away, mainly because of a few unlucky breaks, is still a strong one. The Spaniard is definitely not the sort to lose heart and the determination he showed in yesterday afternoon’s team meeting after the race was the best assurance that he will fight to the bitter end to achieve the targets set at the start of the season.

The Montreal race threw up some other positive elements including the fact that in the eight races so far, the team’s performance in the pit stops has always been very consistent, at the highest level and yesterday, that was clearly seen with Fernando getting the jump on Hamilton at the first stop. With the ban on race refuelling, the mechanics can no longer count on the time that used to be taken for putting the fuel in the tank to do the wheel changes and other possible eventualities – yesterday for example, the nose on Felipe’s car had to be changed twice – and their performance can win or lose a place. The fact that the pit stop procedures have been at the highest level is down to the work of the team these past few months, both in terms of organisation of the procedure and the development of new solutions like the traffic lights, which are beginning to be copied down the pit lane.

From Ferrari.com

well, let's see, but unlike all mclaren fans around here, I won't write fernando off yet, as I said after turkey, I'll wait at least up to valencia to bury the team, I think these guys are seriously working hard and results will come up. A shame what happened with backmarkers, alonso would be leading the board, but 15 points is nothing anyway

don't believe that tbh, this (valencia update) is the first proper/significant update to the f10 and now there's goin to be ones at every race (thats how it sounds) ferrari just trying to please its fans imo.

you really believe that fernando would have one the race without the backmarkers?

In my opinion Turkey was a big wake up call for the team and I see no reason for doubting what they are saying. As Alonso stated, the update opens up new avenues of development which have probably been investigated and started already. As for Alonso winning last week, I believe he could have won. Barring the Buemi incident (which was a brain fade on his behalf), the backmarkers played a crucial role in the eventual outcome of his race...

This has been a know fact since pre-season testing that there has been a so-called b-spec (or whatever you want to call it) coming up. It is just a bit later than most fans expected. If all planned developments had been based around that car, then it could be the reason why Ferrari opted to wing it with the original F10, for as long as possible and hope for the best. Apart from the reliability upgrades and the F-duct, there hasn't been anything significant since Bahrain. If you consider all of the updates the others have brought to their cars and the driver errors, unbelievably, they aren't very far behind. 54 in the WCC and 15 points (Alonso) 42 points Massa in the WDC. To put it into perspective, in old money that is 24 in the WCC and Alonso 7 points with Massa 18 points. With 11 races to go that is retrievable.

Dont discount Ferrari.

i just believed that turkey found there car out, not good enough in certain areas. and how good can the b-spec really be without testing it properly?

They knew a long time before Turkey that there were issues, especially regarding certain tracks. The new spec was started in December. Ferrari have been fortunate to have had Red Bull around to help their cause. Likewise Mclaren have been lucky to have Red Bull around to help.

Ferrari are using exactly the same as what the majority of other teams use. A windtunnel. When they brought their updates in Hungary last year, the car performed as expected, using a windtunnel. The F10 brought the results as expected initially using a windtunnel. I cant see any reason why the expectations for the upgrade should be any different to the expectations of any other team using a windtunnel. Or in fact any other upgrade Ferrari has brought since solely using the windtunnel.

Well Macca have a big update coming at Silverstone... Apparently worth about 0.5 secs per lap. How good can that be without testing it properly???

yes, 100%.

firstly trulli, fernando got fastest lap after hamilton pit stop whilst the british did 1.21, in his 2nd lap fernando only matched lewis pace due to trulli holding him up for a couple of seconds, without trulli fernando would have get out the box in 1st position again.

and secondly without a chandock or any other backmarker neither hamilton nor button would have been able to get close enough to fernando to pass him.

in lap times comparison we can see how hamilton and fernando matched each other several times, the pace was identical,

he would have won without doubt, fernando's gesture on the podium speaks volumes

because the mp4-25's updates aren't a complete 'b spec' car as people have stated for the f10, mclarens are upgrades to the current car that they are positive will work because of all the testing with all the flo-vis, birdcage stuff that they used during testing. this information will still be mostly still be valid and they can use that in the wind tunnel to compare for the new parts. where as ferrari's wont be tested as much because this apparent new car will have no real data, and the f10 never got tested as thorough as the '25 in the first place. when everyone was laughing at the flo vis and different radical devices, mclaren knew why they were using it, too help new upgrades and thoroughly test the parts, not because they were in deep trouble like with the '24; and from statements, every part they've stuck on the '25 has worked (the front wing originally didn't work properly but they made tweaks and ran it in montreal ) I understand that the ferrari chassis is homologated but there are still claims of a very different car, i cant understand how they/you know it will work, unlike mclaren who have a much bigger chance of getting a boost!

Well I agree in the sense that the back-markers definitely hampered Alonso and cost him getting out of the second pit-stop in 1st place. But I have know idea why so many people here take it as gospel that if Alonso had got out in front of Hamilton after the second pit-stop then he would have won. I think getting out in front of Lewis would have given him a better chance to get the win but wouldn't have definitely given him the win.

If you look at the period of the race after the first pit stops (when Alonso was ahead of Lewis) you can clearly see Lewis really pushing Alonso. So much so that at one point he forced Alonso to skip the last chicane while defending. If you couple this with the fact that the McLarens were quicker in the latter part of the race then I believe that if Alonso was ahead after the second pit-stops then there would have been a good chance of Lewis taking back the lead.

Effectively the gist of what I am saying is that the back-markers didn't lose Fernando the race they simply disadvantaged him.

Dude, it's not a b-spec, just revised exhausts and suspension geometry. There may be an updated diffuser as well. With the chassis being homologated I doubt you would see a b-spec car from anybody. As for the Macca update, if they are going to introduce RBR style exhausts I would imagine that they would have to revise their suspension as well as their diffuser too. Also, no upgrade is guaranteed to work as in season testing is banned, regardless of how how much data they have from winter testing... The front wing example you so aptly mentioned is proof enough.

didn't see this happening, footage?

well the 'holy' b spec is what every ferrari fan seemed to have been stating

No footage, Brundle and "up the hill" saw it from their commentators room.

I see you understood what I've said...Thank you..




Where did you see those overtakes? All overtook Shumi because the old man had 30 laps SuperSoft tyres. Massa pitted because he couldn't clear a Force India remember? Yes Alonso maybe would have overtake Lewis there, but Ferrari's tyres were in much much better shape. That's why Hammy pitted... In the last stint with less fuel and more rubber on track McLaren's tyres were holding up... as you know...

is there any way to rewatch the race on bbc? this time I was on holiday in Spain and watched it on la sexta

only way is to live in the uk on the iplayer
http://www.privoxy.org/[/url]

It is just an easier name to use. It is a package overhaul. New diffusor, updated suspension to take into account the new exhaust system, new nose cone, new front wing (about time) and an improved cooling system for the gearbox.

So its not a b-spec per se, just that it might as well be considering the amount of updates.

They probably use the term because it's a big update and because of earlier media reports.

I have it on my disk, but they don't show it.

I live in the uk, but I was spending a few days at home, any link?