Ok lets discuss, where are the limits of allowed in racing

I think this is just about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeyvQcciTQ

anything over it shouldnt happen, he is fortunate though magnussen wasnt injured

risky business

Well driving an other car into a wall is certainly taking it too far.

Looks like the Porsche driver had a serious case of red mist after that love tap by Jan into the corner.

Dirty driving by the Porsche but Jan should have known when all was lost and backed off a bit.

You're kidding right... that was OK in your view?

If pushing someone into the wall is OK then it isn't racing - it is demolition debry. The Vette in the video was guilty of doing the dirty first by bumping the Porsche back at the turn but neither move is OK

Bergmeister stepping just over the line I think, maybe he didn't want a repeat of 2007 Sebring where Melo pipped him for the win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL2HF-sFLnc

Often a lot of drama in GT2, me like

Quite. There's no room for that level of danger on a race track, but the idiot in the Vette started it - that tap was quite deliberate.

Motorsport is a non contact sport!

Saying that the Corvette driver got as good as he gave.

Now that is right on the limit.

I hate it when drivers bump their way past like that, not often they get what they deserve. That one was really deliberate. Stewards should make that kind of defence unnecessary, but they mostly don't, so drivers have to do what they can themselves.

I don't see how you can be so sure that the tap was deliberate. Think about this now....how many times do we see a car run up on another in the brake zone/when a car is turning in?

It happens from time to time. I'd say most times it ends up that the car in front spins for obvious reasons. When a car is turning in they're near the limit of adhesion so the bump takes them over the edge and they spin.

I don't think it's really possible for him to have hit him with less force than he did.

Definitely red mist, definitely a racing incident. They both wanted to win. No idiots involved here...just red mist

LOL - that's like someone slapping you around the face, then you putting a bullet in their head... and claiming you just gave as good as you got!

I was very suprised to see that both drivers got suspended bans after this incident.

I think you have to take the 2 incidents in isolation. Just because you have been aggreived earlier in a race does not justify retaliation - it's up to the stewards to deal out penalties.

First what does Magnussen deserve for the tap?

Second what does Bergmeiseter deserve for moving across the whole width of the track to force someone into the wall, resulting in a big impact?

Motorsport really needs to get tough on these kind of incidents. It immediately feeds down to the lower ranks of racing and karting when drivers are seen to get away with this kind of thing. The kids in cadet karts and junior classes in particular noticably copy manouvers their heros have recently performed in F1/sportscars/Touring cars etc ... but what this usually means is you get to see 8 year olds forced onto the grass or or into a wall at speed. So many drivers need to try and grasp the term "Racing Room" these days and I think they need help from the stewards in the form of tough penalities to make them fully comprehend the concept!

Look again. This was a classic "I lift at the apex trick" by the Porsche. Life time ban. Really. Look at the crash, it could easily have lead to a funeral.

It takes two to tango... Magnussen KNEW the wall was there- still he decided to take the risk-thinking that the other guy would not want it enough to close the door- he was mistaken.

The Porche driver should have been banned for X races. Can't compare the two offences. The first could be a drivers mistake, but number two is definately deliberate.

lol, yeah, I guess you could describe that as being "on the limit".

Mind you, no worse than you see on the M25 some mornings...

Is that the kind of racing we want? Driving people into the wall? If a driver close the door as agressively as in this case NO overtaking will be possible. I want racing - two drivers giving each other enogh space to stay on the road.

Frankly I prefer racing without walls- so in that case who think the other guy has got no balls to shut the door- will land in the gravel...

The problem with the Magnussen move is that it was obvious- it is clear that he will try it, he will try then and there, because he persumed that the other will meakly give way.

Well, the Porsche didn't swing a singl time, he just kept his line all the way to the wall. So the Vette should have known better and lifted.

They played chicken and the Vette lost, that's it

Just to quote myself

The overtaking was -as far as I see it- a deliberate humbling movement- no wonder the guy in the front saw the red mist.

I'm guessing you don't race yourself? I don't know a single racing driver who would lift while alongside another car just in case they decide to put you into the wall or off the track - you would never be able to overtake!

As a driver you may expect the other guy to make it difficult for you to pass and give you as little room as possible right up to the point of deliberately side-swiping you into a wall at 140mph.

"Playing chicken" and driving anyone off the track who tries to pass you might be ok in banger racing - but it's not how it should be done in sportscars - if it was they'd all be driving tanks with bull bars, not corvettes, ferrari's and porsche!

surprisingly, I seem to be the only person who agrees with you. The Porsche driver shouldn't be allowed back onto a track.

Check the video again, the Porsche did one right to left move to defend his position. That's allowed even in F1. It's the Vette's job to figure out if it's a good idea or not to keep pushing.

BTW, did the Porsche get punished?

And he is entitled to do it, it's a common defensive move (edit: the lifting). Putting yourself in the skin of the Porsche driver, and taking into account that you are a racing driver, what do you do? Let someone overtake you after bumping you? If he does that I think that would mean every driver would try that move on him next time. So he was between a rock and a hard place there, he did something not nice, but he had to do it, from a competitive racing driver perspective. So I don't justify that, but definately understand it, and probably would have done the same.

Good discussion. Keep going.

He is not entitled to do it. That is definitely against sporting conduct. Many do though, but my point is that if you get hit after YOU lift off in order to get hit, or force the other to brake instead of accelerate, YOU are to blame. I cant believe the shit I read in this thread. A common view seem to be that the Vette should have lifted because he should have KNOWN he was going to be pushed against the wall??? Seriously folks, nobody is lifting off when about to complete a pass. Nobody. They trust the other driver to have the SANITY to drive him CLOSE to the wall, but not in it. That is basically it. You need to be able to trust your fellow racers in certain areas, and that is one of them.

We really don't know for how long the Porsche was blocking the Corvette, and how. But if the Corvette tried to bump the car ahead the Prosche's driver must have been very very mad, and retaliation is normal. Had I been in his place I would have blocked him as far as I could. I would not have driven him into the wall, though. Anyway, the Corvette had it coming, from having bumped the other guy.

Had I been on the corvette, and after having tried to overtake the porsche and being rudely blocked, I would probably not have bumped into him (I might, if the Porsche had been dirty before). However, if I tried to squeeze the car (the 'vette) between the porsche and a wall, I am absolutely positive I would never have lifted. But then it is possible that the Porsche saw that the corvette was going to deliberately bump into him and reduced speed, in order that the Vette would bump into air and and spin.

When drivers are racing, the overtaker is your enemy: you feel almost as if you could kill him. It is a battle, and it is only after cooling off that one sees that what one did was bloody dangerous and even perhaps unfair.

You cannot really judge a driver in a race by normal by armchair standards. But that said, both were very much to blame, unless the Porsche driver lifted when he understood that the COrvette was about to hit him hard on the side. In which case, the Corvette driver got what he deserved.

I have heard that the only way to stay sane on this BB is to have a very long ignore list. There is still some space left in mine and it welcomes you.

I hadn't looked close enough to the final part. The Porsche had already eased of to the right when the Vette snapped and he was far enough to brake hard and avoid hitting the Vette. That Corvette driver had exactly what he ordered

This should sum it up.

http://www.racer.com/Bergmeister-and-Magnu...article/152119/

+1

Noticed when I joined this board? And I don't have anyone on my ignore list.

If Magnussen isn't bothered by it then neither should we. Completely fair racing IMO, I swear half of you if you had it your way would have overtaking banned.

If Magnussen does not want to make a big public deal out of it, it is ok. He is a cool guy and will not involve himself in a word war through media. But the actions of the Porsche driver there is not ok, no matter how you look at it.

Bit over the limit from both. If your willing to hit someone from behind and take advantage of it to complete the pass then its game on as far as defending harshly is concerned. Dont dish it out if you cant take it.

I've said it on these boards, so now I say it again: if you want safe driving go and drive a bus. Public transportation is about safety- racing is about (among many other things) excitment, danger, brilliant overtakes etc. Racing drivers are paid to take risks from other drivers and to endanger their own lives if it is necessary.

rubish
you need to look at the video again as Bergmeister drove him close to the wall then moved to the right slightly before the second push into the wall.
How can any fool say a tap which was so light that neither car was damadged is the same as deliberatly driving someone into the wall.

On top of that, a tap that was a result of the driver on front lifted when he should have accelerated.

I'm really stunned that so many seem to think this was OK.

Surely none of them have ever sat in a racing car and had this kind of move pulled on them? - I'm quite sure they'd feel differently! (Especially if it was their hard earned $$ that paid for the car that just got intentionally wrecked!)

It's not ok to force a car that is alongside you off the track or into the wall full stop!

WTF I don't even do that in computer games!!

I think we agree mostly. I don't think people should consciously put others' lives at risk but theres nothing wrong with a bit of argy bargy. Especially in closed wheel racing.

Oh man what the hell

I do the "apex lift"
But only when I am racing with friends for fun, it would get me thrown out of league races.

Frankly Jorg Bergmeister should be banned from ever getting into a racecar ever again.

That kinda thing happens in V8 Supercars.

I think what is surprising is that it took place in a sportscar race.

Location also made it a bit worse than perhaps it actually was.

+1 I would give the Porsche driver a 6 race ban for pulling a stunt like that. Allowing moves like that to go unpunished will filter down to karting if we are not careful.

It's like Interlagos 2006, Kimi and Schumacher running right to the wall but in the end MS knew Kimi was always going to leave him exactly a car width of space.

Eliseo Salazar did the same thing to someone, Davy Jones I think, in the '96 Indy 500 when coming down the frontstretch on a late-race restart. I thought there was going to be a massive crash.

As an aside, not that this has to do with much of anything, but I was at the Petit Le Mans last year and watched Magnussen and Johnny O'Connell laughing and taking turns flinging plastic bottles full of water at an occupied porta-john. After absorbing about a dozen loud thuds, out popped a bemused and slightly annoyed Jorg Bergmeister.

Jorg must have been very angry about that deep down. And he knew that it was those two's car attacking him, so...


About the location: it's not inconceivable to think that, had the wall been closer to the track's edge, Magnussen could have won the race while crashing.

Porsche driver should be banned for a very long time. Deliberately driving a competitor into a massive crash is about the worst thing you can do in racing. If you did that on a road you'd go straight to jail for attempted manslaughter.