having recently watctched the australian motor bike gp from phillip island , i was wondering what people would think if the the australian gp was held on the island.
the track is great and technical and offers more of a challenge to the drivers than albert park would but the facilities are poor.
But wasnt there grand prix races held there before , im not terribly sure.

No, No Phillip Island is very much a bike track designed for Bikes. F1 Would be bloody awful there. Similar to Le Mans Bugatti in the 60's

I don't know about it's suitability for F1, but it is a great track for GP bikes (as jvl already said). They should consider having the first and the last race of the season there (something like last race being Australian GP, and first either Pacific GP-if it meant Motegi doesn't fall off, or Australasian GP or whatever).

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the track was rubbish, quite the opposite it is probably the finest GP Bike track in the world or at least amongst the finest. But as a F1 venue..... no thanks!

Bernd
Phillip Island was designed specifically as a car track - not for bikes - but that was way back in 1954.
The biggest problem against it being an F1 track is the safety factor. Modern day F1 drivers would refuse to race on it until it had gravel traps all round - and I am not sure there is the space to do that in some places.
The FIA also might want a chicane or two.
Better to leave it alone. It is a sensational circuit to drive. Some top Australian drivers I have interviewed over the years rate it above Bathurst as their all-time favourite circuit.

Wow... Ok from circuit maps etc it does look like a typical technical bike track to me. Having never been there in person I have never had the chance to check out the camber and elevation changes of the track which TV cannot put across. The V8's do seem to have pretty good races there. What kind of lap times would you estimate a F1 would do?

Interesting question. The best way to guess would be to use qualifying times from cars that run on both Philip Island and a circuit that F1 cars run on. ie. Melbourne Park.

The best yardstick would be Formula Holden times (FYI Formula Holden is basically Formula Nippon or pre 1996 F3000 chassis running a sealed Holden V6). Unfortunately the F1 cars and Formula Holden cars did not run on the same cicuit in 2000, so extrapolation of their lap times to F1 can't be done. In 2000 the Formula Holden pole time (set in February) was 1:24.3828.

The next fastest things to run both at Philip Island and on a circuit with F1 cars in 2000 was undoubtedly the V8 touring cars themselves. Granted it is a much longer stretch to extrapolate a touring car lap time to a F1 lap time than a much closer open wheeled single seater like Formula Holden, but here goes nothing:

Melbourne Park F1 pole time:
Mika Häkkinen (McLaren MP4/15) 1:30.556

Melbourne Park V8 touring car pole time:
Mark Skaife (HRT Commodore) 1:57.899

(ie. the F1 cars lap time is 76.81% of the V8 touring car)

Philip Island V8 touring car pole time (February):
Craig Lowndes (HRT Commodore) 1:32.0713

Presuming the grip/downforce/surface factors held constant between Melbourne Park and Philip Island (so my magical 76.81% figure held true), you would be looking at something like 1:10.718 for a Häkkinen qualifying lap at Philip Island and maybe 1:12 ish race lap times. The weather conditions were similar for both races, late summer, fairly high track temperatures, so at least that is comparable.

Those time predictions are not outrageous by 2000 standards (about the same as the A1-ring), and nothing like the Dijon times from the early 1970's which were well inside a minute.

Not the most scientific analysis ever done, but a start. Any timekeeping buffs have any other ideas for simulating lap times without telemetry data?

[p][smallfont][Edited by david_martin on 10-31-2000][/smallfont]

Bernd,
The Bathurst 1000 was born at Phillip Island. The 1960, 1961 & 1962 editions of 'The Great Race' were held at Phillip Island, but the circuit broke up after the third race. The bridge to the main land was not sturdy enough at the time for decent roadmaking equipment to cross it. The end results of which, in 1963 the race moved to Mount Panorama Bathurst.

yours
Mark Jones

The logistics of getting a crowd to a Formula One race at the Island would be mind-boggling... basically one two-lane road from Melbourne... sure, it's four lane for much of the trip, but it gets down to two, and the bridge is two and everything on the Island is to that same scale.
While the bike spectators are happy to camp at the circuit, where there is room for many more bikes than there would be for cars (dUh!), I don't think you'd see F1 spectators camping in great numbers.
I find it hard to accept that 2:10 would be possible for what is almost a 3-mile circuit... but F1 is pretty incredible.
McCormack did 1:34.3 in practice in 1978 in the M23 Leyland F5000... maybe it's possible. The circuit is a little shorter now, but the corner that was shortened is a little tighter. Let's try it and find out?

Ray,

As I said, the Formula Holdens qualified under 1:25 this year and that is an aerodynamically fairly simple chassis with a 300 ish HP, sub 10000 rpm cast iron block push-rod V6, steel brakes and control tyres. Add about 400-500 Hp, 8000+ extra rpm, two extra gears in a semi-auto gearbox, carbon brakes, probably approaching twice the down force with probably the same or even less drag and Micheal Schumacher or Mika Häkkinen behind the wheel and finding 10 or 15 seconds begins to sound possible.

Looking at it another way the Österreichring is 4.80 km and probably similar in terms of downforce requirements to Philip Island - Häkkinen's pole was 1:10.4. Interlagos is a bit shorter at 4.31 km, but it is notoriously slippery and the tight infield section means they use a lot more wing and Häkkinen's pole was 1:14.1. Philip Island is 4.45 km, so I reckon my 1:10 ish guess from the V8 touring car times at Philip Island and Albert Park seem at least ball park.

I think it is correct to say Philip Island is a motorcycle track. I just wish they brought back Adelaide, it was a nice street course, but Melbourne has some highlights.

Let's see now... shall we go through this again?
Albert Park is the circuit that's in the suburbs of Melbourne. The name 'Melbourne' does in no way apply to Albert Park.
As Phillip Id was built for cars, I fail to see it as being a bike track... and I am staggered at the thought of laps in the 1:10s... But why should I be, I've been around for years... just what would they do around Warwick Farm these days?

I believe this is the Phillip Island (Australia) Grand Prix site (1928 - 1935). Please correct me if I am wrong and add additional information.

Henry

That is not it Henry. The track is fairly easy to find as it is a current track.
I dont know what sort of times an F1 would do but I guess between 1.10 and 1,15.
The track is magic, I prefer it marginally to Bathurst [and it is safer] suits cars and bikes really well. I think if they ever ran F1 there they would bugger the place up with all the runoffs and safety required, though the drivers would love it to drive [but not crash]
While it is not a great spectator circuit it is far better than any street course where you are lucky to see 2 corners. But the access and accomodation is inadequate for touring car rounds. It took me almost 2 hours to get off last time I was there. It was literally walking pace

Looks about right Henry...now superseded by the purpose built track under discussion.

Actually you are a block too far south Henry. Your 'top' or northernmost straight is actually the 'bottom' or southernmost straight of the old pre-1936 track. Layout is very similar.

Haven't that F1 shower of tossers screwed up enough circuits in the last 20 years ? They'd want to add chicanes, move the fences back 100 yards, treble the size of the traps, fill the infield with hoardings so you couldn't see round the track and whack the admission price up to $500 for the weekend, all for a race that'd be yet another procession resulting in a major fiscal return to a poison dwarf who may or may not attend the meeting after holding the organisers and the government to ransom for the privilege. Short-form advice : Piss Off !

Nice spray GD! I have seen 3 Australian tracks running major meetings - Adelaide (the earlier F1 street circuit shafted by the greedy Victorian government), Phillip Island (old disused circuit brilliantly remodelled primarily for GP bikes in late 80s), and Albert Park.

At least in 1985 at Adelaide you could see the drivers at work - Senna, Lauda, Prost, Rosberg, Mansell (who all had something to say for themselves) as they flirted with the armco and 1000HP qualifying motors, not like the plastic drivers and twisted ringmasters of today.

Albert Park, Schumacher and his monosyllabic adversaries in 1999 were as dull as dishwater and on race day I didn't bother using my ticket to try to watch the big screen beside the big pond. On the Saturday the Shannons Cup CanAm races were a better spectacle on a race track which was, frankly pathetic spectator-wise.

Finally, on topic, Phillip Island. Great place for 500, 250 and 125 GPs plus of course the modern MotoGPs and Superbikes, probably the reliably best event on the world calendar. No downsides for bikes (except for the Siberian Wind and accompanying rain squalls) but Bernie would be right in not sanctioning a move from the unlovely Albert Park to a track which best suits (long may that be) motorcycle racing at the top level.

If you want to see what F1 does to great tracks try these for a start; Nurburgring, Hockenheim, Fuji instead of Suzuka. Each another version of F1's vision of the future. Then remember the echoes of glorious duels at places like Watkins Glen, Clermont Ferrand and the full Spa Francorchamps. Now look at the empty stadium GPs in China, Middle East etc where the gravel traps perform the secondary role of trying to separate the TV cameras from the empty seats! A CONTRACTUAL GP season, rather than visiting classical homes of motor racing which can still work.

Pssst...hey! you two! POQ back to the F1 Forum

Gentlemen, do we need to kick this around a bit? What little information on the WWW suggest it was just north of the current track and had a square shaped layout.

One corner was located at Ventnor Road and Phillip Island Road which puts it just below the square shaped small settlement.

Henry

Henry, I suspect David might be right...

But I don't have enough information with me at the moment to confirm that. Terry Walker would be able to discern the correct answer.

Definitely not. It is perfect, and any changes for F1 would mess it up. And make no mistake, they would change as much as they could.
F1 have enough other sites to chose from. Hands off PI.

I used Terry's Fast Tracks as a reference. In it he shows the post 1935 layout as well, which incorporated the old Start-Finish straight, which is seen on Google Earth as the north-south straight on the left, which was the long side of a more or less triangular course which went through Ventnor.

On the top-left corner of the circuit you have transcribed Henry, there is a roundabout where a road heads north-east rather than east, and this is where the post 1935 layout went. Terry's map also shows a creek which can vaguely be made out from Google Earth.

I'm with David on this
A map in John Blanden's AGP book (the one before the Fifty Year History) shows the start/finish on an unnamed road, which fits with the extension of what is now Red Rocks Road.
It then turns right into Nobbies Road (now Ventura Road), then again into Thompson Avenue. The old map shows this as the road leading straight out of Cowes from the jetty, therefore what is now Phillip Island Road.
Next turn is where Wimbledon Heights now is and leads into another road not named on the early map, then back again to the start/finish straight

Not having it there is a waste of a perfectly good track.



Gets my vote!

The original Phillip Island circuit is marked by the long red dashes on the inside. The shorter red dashes to the left are the later short circuit. And the yellow dashes to the right show the much longer prewar motorcycle circuit. I rode my BMW R100S around all three old circuits quite a few years ago, and a long section of the bike circuit to the right was still dirt, high-crowned and narrow, just like the car circuit used to be in the 30s. Very educational!

Mr. Google brought me here. So does this help or hinder?

About three quarters down the page.

Henry

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/t9.htm

Edit: Yes Terry and David it does appear you are correct and mine is too far south. Thanks.

I was at a round of the World Superbike Championship at P.I. back in 1999, when they also had a round of the World Sidecar Championship on the same program. Talking to some of the European sidecar riders, I mentioned this track was more open and flowing than the rest of the the Australian tracks and more similar to the European style of track.
His reply was that if this track was in Europe, they would put bl__dy chicanes in it everywhere and stuff it up.

On the way back from the Phillip Island circuit to Cowes and the Isle of Wight pub, you come across a corner of the old track which is marked "Gentle Anne Corner" (if my memory is correct). This may help in identifying the old circuits location.

That's what I was trying to say ;)

Timbo
Gentle Anne is the one at the bottom right of Terry's dotted red circuit. The others (going clockwise) were originally Hell, Heaven and Young & Jackson's.

I used to think the same way about Road America here in the States but then I got a reality check that it would be EFFED UP like most of the nice circuits in Europe by Tilki.http://www.roadamerica.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duNKaCRm89c

Once again I have learnt something here. I always though that the PI track was always in the same location as it is now.
The 60s version of the track the Southern loop went further than it does now. When it was restored for the bikes they shortened it, I guess for runoff.

I don't know about the run to Southern Loop being shortened, but the run down to the Repco/Honda hairpin was.

I don't think the run to Southern Loop has been changed, either...

Lee... check out this thread.

From what i have been told by people who raced there before it closed the turn 2-3 complex was about a 100 yards further, as was the exit to 3 towards Honda which I believe was a bit straighter.
During the redeveloment I read similar attributed to Bob Barnard.
Personally I never went there until about 94, but have spoken to some older blokes who did race there in the 70s
From what I have gathered the track from Honda to turn 1 has not changed though possibly a little wider and smoothed out in places. Looking at old mags I am sure that Lukey Heights is now.
An absolutely great track though not quite as fast as I initially expected and has great visibility from a drivers perspective. [you can look way ahead and around the next corner] Far better than Bathurst in that respect. TV does flatten out both of those circuits.

Fortunately, Mr Tilke's sketch of the revisions needed to make is suitable for F1 have been made public. As you can see, it is a very great improvement:

Nice work Terry! I think that he left the straight way too straight though.

+1

A visit to the Phillip Island circuit visitors centre (before Lindsay Fox took over) revealed a plan of the track and land with an 18 hole golf course running through the property.

It seems this was an idea to utilise the land before the track was rebuilt for the motorcycle grands prix in the 1990's. At least they would have had a ready made cart path.

For quite a while after the track was re-opened you could still see the bitumen near the tyre barriers at MG/Honda corner where extra distance of the original track used to go. This seems to have disappeared during the most recent safety upgrade.

It's a cool track, but not suitable for modern F1 because it doesn't have a huge straight followed by an hairpin - the only places F1 can overtake nowadays.

If anyone would like to Google Earth Phillip Island circuit and look at Honda corner, you can still make out the original extended loop which heads virtually all the way to the lake before turning around and heading to Siberia. you can also make out the concrete patchwork of the track on the inside of the corner as well.
The Southern Loop looks like thats the way it always was.

Sorry I can't post a photo, Google earth won't cut and paste for me.

Henry

You can't cut and paste from G Earth or G Map.

What you have to do is "print screen", then paste screen dump as "new image" in a graphics package, eg Paint Shop Pro or whatever, then crop, resize, save, and then load that image up to Imageshack or Photobucket or whatever and then link to your post.

Hi Terry.

Folks, the method I use is to first download GE to my computer and then simply use the GE feature to save the image desired to my computer picture file and then use Image Shack to cut and paste link to TNF.

After use I then transfer the image to a CD for future reference. This also gets the file off your computer to save space.

Henry