Help? Looking for Avus 1930s photos Options

[hans stuck]

In partic, I'm looking for good clear shots of the Mercedes tower that was behind the north curve, which is now a hotel...thanks.

[Michael Müller]

[hans stuck]

MM...great shot thanks. Im familiar with that one...looking for close-ups, trackside.

[Arturo Pereira]

Hi HS,
Give me a couple of days and I will email you some pictures. I think I have the ones you are looking for. On the other hand, there is a forum (in German language) where I could find pictures about Avus, but sadly I did not have the link. Maybe if you do a Search at Google you will be able to find it.

AP

[Holger Merten]

Would be interesting for all the others too.

[uechtel]

very popular motive, not only in the thirties.

[Vitesse2]

Hmm ....

The pre-war pictures I've seen don't show any advertising on it. Certainly no 3-pointed star on top. And that square bit near the top appears to be covering over the original clock, which was on the wall of the tower.

[aldo]

Have a look at Chris Nixon's Auto Union Album. There are many photos of Avusrennen 1937 with the tower well depicted.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by uechtel

Although I have seen similar pictures of cars going through that 43-degee banking, I can't help but think what a huge set of gonads it took to go through there flat out in an open wheel car.

[MPea3]

wow, there was no real retaining wall, just a curb of sorts? i guess that gives a littel more insight into behra's accident as i from the few descriptions i've read i assume went over the top. how many others did?

also, in uechtel's first photograph, what accident was that? and in his last photograph, why the american flag? wasn't any post WW2 occupation over by the mid-50's? where's don when we need him...

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hmm ....

The pre-war pictures I've seen don't show any advertising on it. Certainly no 3-pointed star on top. And that square bit near the top appears to be covering over the original clock, which was on the wall of the tower.

well, at least not there in the immediate post-war years:




We had a great discussion about the AVUS in the German Forum with most of these fantastic pictures from McRonalds.

Originally posted by MPea3
wow, there was no real retaining wall, just a curb of sorts? i guess that gives a littel more insight into behra's accident as i from the few descriptions i've read i assume went over the top. how many others did?

Richard von Frankenberg, the lucky one...

also, in uechtel's first photograph, what accident was that?

Paul Pietsch in the Veritas Meteor AVUS streamliner specially built for the AVUS race in 1952. Lost control on a bump. Here the car how it looked like a few hours earlier:

and in his last photograph, why the american flag? wasn't any post WW2 occupation over by the mid-50's? where's don when we need him... [/B]

Berlin was under four-power status until 1990. Until then no German military (Neither "Bundeswehr" nor "NVA") there, only the allied forces in their respective sectors. Also the delegates from Berlin were not fully member of the parliament of the FRG, only "observer" status. Also in the rest of the country "occupation" never really ceased but was step by step transformed into military presence of the forces of the respective alliances (NATO and WPO).

Only after the round table talks (4 + 2) in 1990 Germany got re-union and full official sovereignty again.

But in this case the flags could have been there to honour the participants from other countries.

[hans stuck]

These are the most beautiful pics...THANKS SO MUCH...REALLY INCREDIBLE. The Nixon book is difficult to track down, but ill keep looking. Again...just WOW.

[prettyface]

I thought I might add these, although they're post-1959. I really regret losing the URL of the site that had them. I thumbnailed them as the files are pretty big.

[uechtel]

My archive is quite thin on pre-war times, but I found another three pictures from 1937:





and this one from the same place, only a little bit earlier

[eukie]

Today Mercedeshaus and tribune are protected as historical monuments / sites. Their short description in the list of protected monuments in Berlin, edited by the Landesamt für Denkmalpflege reads as follows: Halenseestraße 47/51, Verwaltungsgebäude mit Gaststätte und Beobachtungsturm, heute Raststätte AVUS, 1936 von Walther Bettenstaedt; Umbau 1977 von Gerhard Rainer Rümmler; Zuschauertribüne, 1936-37 von Fritz Wilms und Walther Bettenstaedt
You can download the whole list of all protected historical buildings and sites in Berlin at http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/denkmal

[prettyface]

Originally posted by uechtel

and this one from the same place, only a little bit earlier

Technically not really the same place; the curve of the 43 degree banking was less than half the radius of the original one; which had to go to make way for an avenue for the Berlin Olympics of 1936, or something like that.

For fun, I once did superimpose two pictures taken from aproximately the same angle; one from the late 20's and another from 1937; both having in common only the north gate building and the start of the straight. It shows the difference between the two curves in a dramatic way. The current surviving curve is even smaller, I believe.



Fascinating place, even if despised -and with reason- by race drivers.

[uechtel]

Very informative view!!!

And yes, indeed to me a very fascinating circuit, even if there was a trend in the media in the recent years to regard the track "not demanding enough". In fact the only DTM races I watched until the very end were those at the Avus and the Norisring. Loooong straights ending in 180 degree turns and still not too much artifical character. But you need endless run-out zones...

[uechtel]

To confirm your statement here a picture from the twenties. It shows the starting area with the end of the Nordkurve joining in from the right just in front of that building.




Also interesting, by looking on the picture that was posted by Michael I get the impression that the rear of the banking was held up by pillars (like at my old Carrera track) with the rest of the space empty



while on the other picture it looks like it has been filled up with soil

[hans stuck]

uechtel...interesting...the "carrera" pillars may be an optical illusion...it looks like earth coming over the lip of the curve in the upper left part of the curve. perhaps the pillars are actually steps up to the tip for viewing?

[Don Capps]

The northern part of the AVUS ended up in the US Zone and the original south curve in the Soviet Zone, hence the circuit being chopped short. Believe it or not I never got to Berlin, despite my wanting to go.

It is my -- secondhand -- understanding that the area beneath the banking was filled in with dirt to support the banking, just like most have surmised. Somewhere I have seen a picture clearly showing this -- with the "beams" or walkways also being shown.

Outstanding photographs, by the way! I don't think I have seen so many AVUS pictures in one place in ages!

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by Don Capps
The northern part of the AVUS ended up in the US Zone and the original south curve in the Soviet Zone, hence the circuit being chopped short.

@Don; It's right the Avus ended up in the Soviet Zone, but only the 'Autobahn' - not the racetrack. The track has been shortened before the war and after the war the whole circuit was part of the US zone.

[McRonalds]

And for all who haven't noticed it yet - here are the links to my Avus-archives of the years 51, 52, 53, 54:

http://www.mcronalds.de/51/
http://www.mcronalds.de/52/
http://www.mcronalds.de/53/
http://www.mcronalds.de/54/

And the years 21, 22, 23, 24, 55, 56, 58

http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/21/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/22/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/23/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/24/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/55/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/56/
http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/58/

[prettyface]

Originally posted by McRonalds
And for all who haven't noticed it yet...

A fantastic collection! I spent hours browsing when they first came up in the Geman forum.
Is there a chance for '59 and the 30's completing it?

Originally posted by hans stuck
uechtel...interesting...the "carrera" pillars may be an optical illusion...it looks like earth coming over the lip of the curve in the upper left part of the curve. perhaps the pillars are actually steps up to the tip for viewing?

Definitely earth banks. For certain, people used to get up there somehow. There was a
tunnel beneath the banking at its midpoint that allowed access to the infield; maybe it
had an exit at the top as well? I mean, there was a Mercedes star atop a Monolith at
that point in the late 30's; looked like a good place to have an exit. I believe this picture
was posted, or linked to, in this forum:



I can't resist posting this one, nicked from another forum:

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by prettyface


A fantastic collection! I spent hours browsing when they first came up in the Geman forum.
Is there a chance for '59 and the 30's completing it?

Of course there is. The collection is already available, but only on my computer. It seems my webspace is getting smaller ever day and for especially the '59 & '37 pictures are comprehensive I have to delete some files before getting them online. Patience please...

[hans stuck]

prettyface...who is that fella atop the north curve? great pic! whats the date of the photo?

[McRonalds]

Originally posted by hans stuck
prettyface...who is that fella atop the north curve? great pic! whats the date of the photo?

It's Carel de Beaufort - and I think it's a picture from 1959 when he went over that banking!

[uechtel]

McRonalds, thank you for "borrowing" your online archive to this thread.

Hope you will find more webspace soon to show us the rest of your wonderful pictures.

[hans stuck]

did some quick reading...very interesting Beaufort blurb, off of 8W site:
"At the Avus sportscar race he clipped the top of the banked Nordkurve, his Porsche tumbling down into the trees at the back of the banking. Miraculously, the car performed a cat-with-nine-lives trick by falling on its feet unscathed. Well, relatively unscathed… As if nothing happened Carel then went on to rejoin the race at the bottom of the banking! The race officials needed some time to convince themselves it was not Beaufort's ghost doing the honours before they pulled out the black flag to disqualify the battered Porsche… The next day, he had his picture taken at the scene of the event, Carel in his overalls putting on a brave pose. The photoshoot distinctly lacked taste, as Jean Behra had been killed at the very spot, in the very same race. But perhaps it was Beaufort's way of silencing Behra's ghost. To have had a friendly drink with De Portago and dinner with Mackay-Frazer shortly before their deaths had made a huge impression. The thoughts that had been tucked away safely must have come back to haunt him after clipping the towering banking of Avus. What other way to push away the insanity of it all than by putting on a brave face?" Wow, wild stuff, thanks for the Beaufort post...I've learned again here.

[McRonalds]

Okay, here we go with some pictures from 1926:

http://www.mcronalds.de/~upload/mcronalds/f1bilder/26/

[Speed Demon]

Darn it. Having seen this thread, I realise I'm going to have to modify my AVUS track diagrams. And I spent hours doing them. Doh!

Any pics of the various Southkurves to help me out? Wasn't the original banked too?

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by prettyface


I can't resist posting this one, nicked from another forum:

Great to suddenly see this picture of Godin the Beaufort pop up here. I knew of it's exsistence but I never saw it. May I ask where you got it from?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Speed Demon
Darn it. Having seen this thread, I realise I'm going to have to modify my AVUS track diagrams. And I spent hours doing them. Doh!

Any pics of the various Southkurves to help me out? Wasn't the original banked too?

obviously not...



the first variant (before 1937)





neither in the shortened post-war version.

McRonalds, sorry to disagree, but all my literature tells, that the track was shorted after the war, because the Souther part was cut off by the border between the US and the Russian occupation zone.

The track was indeed shortened already in 1937, but only from 19,6 km originally to now 19,363 km (source: Cimarosti) with this difference probably very much represented by the decreased radius of the Nordkurve, shown in prettyface´s picture.

Alas I have no clear picture of the South curve from 1937 to prove this, but I am sure with the help of your impressive archive this matter will be cleared soon...

[prettyface]

Originally posted by Marcel Visbeen


Great to suddenly see this picture of Godin the Beaufort pop up here. I knew of it's exsistence but I never saw it. May I ask where you got it from?

I saved it from a fellow who posted it at Racesimcentral's Grand Prix Legends forum. I'm doing a version of the track for GPL in its 1951-1967 configuration and people posted some scans there. I'm betting it must be either from a magazine, or Richard Kitschigin's book (Mythos AVUS); but I really have no way of knowing.

[prettyface]

Originally posted by uechtel

obviously not...

Actually uechtel, it seems that it was banked; and to a higher degree than the north curve! . Quoting from Leif Snellman's site:

The Nordschleife itself was 254 m long and 9 m wide and was banked in an angle of 1 to 11.6 (4.93°). The Südschleife was 166 m long and 20 m wide with a banking of 1 to 10 (5.71°).

http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/t2.htm

Of course, that's still pretty flat compared with the 43.6 degrees of the "wall of death".

Other angles of the old sudkurve:

McRonalds, sorry to disagree, but all my literature tells, that the track was shorted after the war, because the Souther part was cut off by the border between the US and the Russian occupation zone.

I believe the whole of the original racetrack was always in western zones. The nordkurve is in
Charlottenburg, which was in the British zone, and it crossed to the American zone in Zehlendorf.
I think this is where the confusion about the track crossing zones comes from. Not to Russian controlled territory, but American. I remember reading that the real reason the track was cut was the cost of manteinance; adding to it that people were inclined to get bored with the long intervals of non-action of the long track, plus the simplification of keeping everything within British boundaries.

This isn't the most detailed of maps, but it shows the AVUS (southwest, parallel to the railroad) completely inside western bounds. I think the town of Nikolassee, which the original sudkurve barely edged, was on the Russian part of Germany, outside (inside?) the wall. The original sudkurve being -inside- the wall.

http://www.dailysoft.com/berlinwall/maps/b...nwallmap_02.htm

The different zones:
http://www.dailysoft.com/berlinwall/maps/b...nwallmap_01.htm

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by McRonalds

It's Carel de Beaufort - and I think it's a picture from 1959 when he went over that banking!

Agree with Marcel on the magnificent Beaufort picture with Carel sitting at the top of the banking, tempting fate with a wry smile...

Ditto for the above picture - but do you have a larger version, Ronald?

[McRonalds]

I have found another picture that shows the degree of the banking very well - MvB during the Avusrennen 1932:

[Leif Snellman]

Have you see this one before?
The Voiturette start 1933.

Compare it to "uechtels picture" from the 1920s.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by McRonalds
I have found another picture that shows the degree of the banking very well - MvB during the Avusrennen 1932:

Banking in 1932???

So is this your next candidate for the "Fotos die Lügen" thread or simply one of your famous picture tricks?

To me that looks much more than only 6 degrees banking. And in the other pictures there are no spectator places that close at any of the two corners!

I´m very much irritated...

[hans stuck]

One of the reasons I started this post: Been doing some painting on my slot car track...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by hans stuck
One of the reasons I started this post: Been doing some painting on my slot car track...

That's appalling... all the photographic evidence above and still you run your slot cars the wrong way!

You need to discuss matters with Barry Boor...